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I'm just curious about how you all might interpret this statement about adolescence (here defined as roughly between 12 and 20 years of age):
"Period of life from puberty to adulthood (roughly ages 12-20) characterized by...a progression from concrete to abstract thought." Britannica
I've omitted information about other indicators of adolescence. Here I'm more interested in what you categorize as strictly concrete and strictly abstract thought, especially as might be evidenced in the developing thought processes of adolescents.
Oh, and even if not applied to adolescents, what would you immediately categorize as concrete thoughts and abstract ones?
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WW, your title sent a chill down my spine! You see, I wrote the exact same sentence in a letter a year back or so to a friend and I was startled when I saw it up on Q&A.  Cyber worlds sometimes unnerve me. Like Jackie once asked in anxious bewilderment, 'where does it all go'? To give you some cotext without delving into protracted details; I was referring in that note, to my worry about imbuing what was in all probability an abstract notion with concrete sentiment. To my mind, anything concrete is tangible and has a core of reality and fact in it. Whilst abstract, has only the shape of possibility; its core is, the burden of proof. It is the germ of an idea or thought that has not been put through the test.
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It is tempting for adolescents to be overconfident about the extent of their knowledge. I remember a quotation from Mark Twain to the effect that when he was fifteen, his old man was so stupid, he caould hardly stand him But when he was twenty, he was amazed at how much the old guy had learned in five years.
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I think most of the experts in whatever-field-this-would-be (probably child psychology) would use an age bracket 2-4 years lower. Abstract thought develops parallel to the realisation that the universe is not you-centric. A recent study (in The Lancet maybe - I think we discussed it here somewhere) showed that perception of sarcasm is not complete until well into the teenage years. Concrete versus abstract thought would be tested by use and understanding of sarcasm and metaphor, and the ability to explain proverbs.
That was a whole lot of random information. I can add more (or PM) if anyone wants more info, of which I have quite a bit given that this is my planned specialisation. One day.
And what's with the medical questions today WW?
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Back when most people had heard of them we used to use proverbs to assess concrete vs abstract thinking after brain injury. eg "What does it mean when I say 'A rolling stone gathers no moss"? A concrete response would be "the moss gets scraped off when the rock moves. More abstract would be "If you don't stick to one job you'll never get rich." or "New experiences keep you from getting stagnant." The meaning was less important than their ability to move from the concept of the physical object to using it to represent a non-physical concept. It was not unusual for someone familiar with the abstract meaning prior to a brain injury to be unable to make that move after.
We don't use them much now not because people are more concrete (????) but because they aren't haven't heard of proverbs.
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DocC: The question about how readers here distinguish concrete from abstract thoughts is simply one of curiosity. I'm interested in reading how we define that line that separates the two. I expect there to be a gray area. But the question on the other thread about pneumonia came from researching pneumonia on the internet. I thought I might have pneumonia, self-diagnosed it, and then became interested in some of what I was reading about it, particularly nursing home pneumonia. [My doctor is treating me for acute bronchitis, but I still think I have pneumonia. ] Edit: Zed, I just read what you just posted about the use of proverb interpretation to help determine brain injury--very interesting!
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Off the top of my head--I would say that concrete thought applies to things that can be seen, heard, touched, smelled, or tasted. Can be unequivocally demonstrated, one way or another. Abstract is everything else.
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If I write a treatise on the effects of mixing cement, sand and gravel with water, that's concrete. If someone makes a short précis of the treatise, that's an abstract. 
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.... we used to use proverbs to assess concrete vs abstract thinking ....
That's very interesting, Zed.
I remember that when I was quite young (6 or 8 yrs old, I guess) I used to love Æsop's Fables, and the concrete examples of the stories helped me to develop an understanding of the abstract concepts of the "moral" to each story.
These days, I do find Æsop more than a little tedious - I no longer need the example to comprehend the message of the moral.
And, to me, the difference between the concrete and abstract is well summed up by the story and the moral in those tales.
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Not that I'm complaining, but, why is going from concrete to abstract thought considered 'progress'? 
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Complain all you want, Musick. I'm not agreeing with Britannica either way. I'm just interested in how people here conceive of concrete and abstract thought.
Interesting that we haven't opened up any discussion of abstract art...
P.S. It could be argued that all thought is a form of abstraction, but that argument would be too diverting.
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abstract: 2: expressing a quality apart from an object <the word poem is concrete, poetry is ~>
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Interesting that we haven't opened up any discussion of abstract art...
Personally, I don't consider any visual art form to be abstract. Non-representational - sure; but visual art is a concrete expression of thoughts and feelings, as well as a different way of viewing concrete objects.
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So, Rhubarb, what do you make of comments such as the one I paste from Britannica:
"FRANZ MARC: "(1880-1916) German painter.
His early works were academic, but exposure to Impressionism and Jugendstil lightened his style, and in 1911, with Vassily Kandinsky and other abstract painters, he became a founding member of the Blaue Reiter group. He believed that spiritual essence is best revealed through abstractionand was passionately interested in the art of primitive peoples, children, and the mentally ill. His own work consisted primarily of animal studies, since he believed nonhuman forms of life to be the most expressive manifestation of the vital force of nature. He was killed in action in World War I."
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We don't use them much now not because people are more concrete (????) but because they aren't haven't heard of proverbs.
Zed, are you saying that nowadays people aren't familiar with proverbs [aka aphorisms] like "a rolling stone gathers no moss"?
If true, that's rather startling. How do you account for this? Is it all part of the general dilution of literacy in schools which began with the elimination of memorized passages, usually poetry?
If we are raising students with no awareness of the aphorisms which have been part of our common language, in some cases, for hundreds of years, and no awareness of poetry, who will write the speeches which future leaders will deliver to the generations to come? Will our leaders stir the masses with rap verses? [Perhaps, it has already come to that.]
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raising students with no awareness of the aphorisms
They got plenty to learn about in school these days without learning pieces of nonsense about rolling stones. When's the last time you even saw a stone roll? Any school kid I've known these days leaves us old coots behind in so many things I'm not going to fret over red skies at night or selling unkilled bearskins.
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When's the last time you even saw a stone roll?
Lemme think. Ah yes, about the same time I last saw a kid leave school who wasn't IMHO semi-illiterate and completely functionally uneducated.
You can stuff kids chock full of facts using video clips and picures without ever educating them. I agree, the need for them to read real words or to understand anything about the past which isn't connected to the production of video games or violent movies is strictly for the birds. So let's just give the education away and save our government - and, indirectly, us taxpayers - a shitload of moolah.
Maybe isolated facts about irrelevancies are enough in this brave new world, anyway.
- Pfranz
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wordmin and Cap: when's the last time you spent any time in a public school? have you volunteered your time? have you read to your children? are you helping?
formerly known as etaoin...
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Michigan has grants for poets and poetry in the schools, who knows for how much longer, but a friend of mine, Terry Wooten, has been a traveling school poet for at least 20 years and a friend of his, Max Ellison, was for years before him. I remember Max coming to my high school. My daughter and son remember Terry. When my daughter was in first grade, she was sooo excited to personally know the poetry man.... 
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They got plenty to learn about in school these days without learning pieces of nonsense about rolling stones
A curious thing to hear from an evangelical grammarian.
That's an example of Faldage's sense of humor--it's his endearing side.
Aha! In that case, "Bravo", Faldage.
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Gosh, wordminstrel, you're being so literal! That's an example of Faldage's sense of humor--it's his endearing side. Turn that stone over to its other side and you'll see what I mean.
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are you helping?
Good Qs all, etaoin, 'cept my Q was sincere.
Zed reported that a handy cognitive test using proverbs has fallen out of use because no-one knows the proverbs anymore. My surprise is genuine. Likewise, my inquiry about the reason for this.
I don't think "proverbs" were ever actually taught in school, at least, on a systematic basis. They were just absorbed into our language without conscious drilling. How else could they have been passed down to us, in some cases, through several centuries?
So, where have all the "proverbs" gone ... long time passing?
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yah, sorry. I tend to kneejerk my reax when it comes to school. bein' a edukater an' all...
there is still some talk of Aesop in schools, but there is no question that schools have changed. however, I think you're right when you say that proverbs weren't necessarily a big part of school for most of us. a lot of us picked that up at church, and I think that there are fewer kids going to churches that use that sort of teaching. I also had a ton of books growing up(go figure), and there were many collections of good stories and proverbs and fables, etc...
anyway, the best thing that us wordy types can do is volunteer at schools to read to kids, to tell stories, to help out in the classroom and show kids that words and stories are cool, and that there are adults out there that love them. words and kids, that is...
formerly known as etaoin...
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wordmin and Cap: when's the last time you spent any time in a public school? have you volunteered your time? have you read to your children? are you helping?
I taught for six years at tertiary level. I don't have the patience or the stamina to take on anybody who isn't old enough to drink. That was enough. If you can't beat 'em, ignore 'em. Damn, there's another "proverb". Although I guess it's more of an axiom in my case.
- Pfranz
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Actually I think it has more to do with the isolation of generations than with schools. Kids nowadays (just saying that makes me feel like someone's great aunt) have had much less contact with other age groups than any other generations. They know a great many kids within 2 years of their own age and a few career age adults including teachers and parents. As a result they don't hear the expressions and aphorisms and stories that used to be passed down in conversation. The generation that are parents now were almost as segregated so aren't able to pass them on, even if there was the level of conversation as recreation that it would require. Having videos even in the back seat of the car isn't going to help either.
I read of an inner school project in London to reduce shcoolyard violence. The teachers realized that the kids were so segragated by age that they didn't learn the traditional schoolyard games from the older kids. When the teachers took turns teaching marbles, skipping games, hopscotch etc bullying and fights dropped dramatically as the kids now were active instead of bored.
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strictly concrete and strictly abstract thought
It's the term strictly that bothers me here. Even pure perception involves a good deal of abstraction (distinction of object from background). At the moment you reflect on the perceived thing and try to categorize it, you already reach a higher level of abstraction. A "strictly abstract thought" would probably lack any connection with experience - and only with luck it would escape the label of nonsense.
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RE: they didn't learn the traditional schoolyard games from the older kids.
Yes, the same is true here in US... My Sister, who lives in Japan just started there as a member of the cultural exchange program, and plans lessons for primary students about how school in Japan is different than in US, and/or other countries. (it is a school based program, she works two days a week)
For instance, all Japanese school children learn to ride a unicycle as part of their Phys Ed program.
She contacted me, to get some school yard games, (jacks, tiddly winks, pick up sticks)to share--but these are hard to get, since kids no longer play them. We played skully, too,(there is a thread some where back almost years ago about skully, and other kids games)and ring-a-levio, but my kids didn't play these games. and most kids today don't even play jump rope, or clapping games,(or even counting out games for who will be it, in Tag) and don't know the songs and words to them.
I remember reading once that the eeny, meeny, miney, moe, of the old count out song, is based on old counting chants use by shepherds, and is related to the old welsh words for 1, 2, 3. it had other "verses", similar to One,two, buckle my shoe, and was used in oral based society to teach counting.
eeny, meeny, miney, moe,
Catch a (******) by your toe (we used tiger, for ****, but other animals and even ethnic groups have been used)
If he cries out let him go,
eeny, meeny, miney, moe,
You are it!
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eeny, meeny, miney, moe,
Catch a (******) by your toe
If he cries out let him go,
eeny, meeny, miney, moe,
You are it!
Up in the Bronx it went
"Eeny, meeny, miney, mo,
Catch a ****** by the toe,
If he hollers let him go
My mother says to pick this one and out goes y-o-U"
Note the slightly different dialect, in words and syllable count.
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On my psychiatry rotation in med school, we would ask patients the following question during the initial interview: "How are a bicycle and an airplane alike?" The overwhelming majority of the psychiatric patients would answer, "Uh...they both got wheels!" It was depressing how few people replied with a more abstract answer. ("They are both modes of transportation.")
On a whim I asked the question to an acquaintance who is mildly mentally retarded and also has Tourette's Syndrome. He immediately replied with gusto, "Both!" and elaborated no further.
My friend's four year old daughter was coming home with her mother and they saw that the pickup truck of a friend of her dad's was in the driveway. "It looks like Mike is here," her mom said. "Yes," the girl replied, "his car is in the driveway." "Well...it's a truck isn't it?" her mother gently corrected her. The girl sighed and replied in a slightly irritated voice, "Well, it is a vehicle."
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"How are a bicycle and an airplane alike?" I would spontaneously answer: they are easily crashed
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Sometimes test makers assume that the answer is obvious--to themselves at least
When my middle child went for his pre-kindergarten screening the tester asked "What's wet?" and got the answer "Water."
Next was "What burns?" - A. "Fire."
Finally - "What bounces?" Gleefully: Tigger!"
Examiner looks inquiringly at my wife, chaperoning, who nods affirmatively (as anyone who knows Disney's Pooh should). Makes no difference, the book says the right answer is "a ball," and to this day the record shows INCORRECT for that item.
Didn't keep him out of kindergarten somehow, and he even survived the rest of his schooling. Or maybe it's that they survived him.
Makes me want to go back and re-read John Holt's How Children Fail again.
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Kids often do think differently than adults do--and, of course, some adults think differently than most other adults do! This wasn't a test, but validates what WW and wofa said: my son was 4, and we were at a friend's house. He asked for a drink; she got it, held it out of his reach, and asked him, "What's the magic word?" (Trying to prompt him to say Please, of course.) He responded, "Abracadabra". It fit his experiences.
I am pretty rusty, but I know the ability for abstract thinking is used as an indicator for whether someone needs psychological/psychiatric help, and what kind.
most kids today don't even play jump rope, or clapping games,(or even counting out games for who will be it, in Tag) and don't know the songs and words to them. Yes, and I find that very sad. Not so much at the loss of these games in particular, but at the loss of so much valuable social interaction. Children learn social skills during play that they will need in adult life, and I'm afraid they're not going to get it being isolated with "interactive" toys. Computers for infants? Come on! One of the biggest regrets I have with the way my children were raised is their lack of neighborhood playmates. There were always at least half a dozen potential playmates for me; but there was only one other set of siblings that were possible playmates for my kids when they were of a good age for play, and those two were hellions--not behavior I wanted my kids to emulate. My kids had each other, and had friends from school come over, but that's not like the daily fun/fighting/interaction with neighborhood friends. I STILL remember when I got mad during a game of basketball (such as we kids could play) and stormed away, announcing that well, then, I just wouldn't play. I was utterly taken aback that the game went right on and that they continued to have fun without me!
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Wordwind: I think you missed my point completely and then proceeded to make it yourself.
It wasn't a standardized test with correct and incorrect answers. (In fact I never used the words correct or incorrect in my post.) It was a verbal interviewing technique to discern the sophistication of the thinking of the subject. I found it depressing how many people seemed locked into a mode of concrete thinking. Many such people lack the intellectual ability to do well in this world, and are easily manipulated by others (advertising, politcal campaigns, propaganda, etc), and I find that depressing.
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WW, do you realize what a wonderful gem you are? The world needs a million teachers like you. Don't blush!
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In reply to:
I love the 'Tigger' answer for 'things that bounce.' Perfectly correct. The problem wasn't with the response; the problem was with the test--and with the test designers' and evaluators' inability to be ntelligent interpreters. There is no reason that 'Tigger' should not have been viewed as an intelligent and correct response.
Yes, I agree, and in fact it irks me a bit that you felt like I needed this explained to me. But, as I have not yet had my morning's coffee, perhaps I will see your kind explanation with a little more humor later in the morning.
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Consuelo, I thought it; you said it. WW, how come you're not beaten down by the paperwork and the clip-board brigade like most other teachers I know? Your spirit must transcend it. Don't ever be defeated.
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in fact it irks me a bit that you felt like I needed this explained to me.
No need to take it personally. Sometimes it's a nice thought to explain things unnecessarily
because there are others on the Board, or just lurking, who have had different cultural exposure
and may not know (for example) Winnie the Pooh, or even Disney's Winnie the Pooh.
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When my middle child went for his pre-kindergarten screening the tester asked "What's wet?" and got the answer "Water."
Next was "What burns?" - A. "Fire."
Finally - "What bounces?" Gleefully: Tigger!"
Examiner looks inquiringly at my wife, chaperoning, who nods affirmatively (as anyone who knows Disney's Pooh should). Makes no difference, the book says the right answer is "a ball," and to this day the record shows INCORRECT for that item.
Didn't keep him out of kindergarten somehow, and he even survived the rest of his schooling.
What an indictment of the American education system. They test kindergarten kids to see if they're suitable?
How very, utterly and indescribably sad.
- Pfranz
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In reply to:
No need to take it personally. Sometimes it's a nice thought to explain things unnecessarily
because there are others on the Board, or just lurking, who have had different cultural exposure
and may not know (for example) Winnie the Pooh, or even Disney's Winnie the Pooh.
Well in fact the comment did occur in a paragraph following the salutation "Alex," so I felt like there was a conversation going on between two parties. Sorry to be so touchy in the first place, but the whole thread has follwoed down a path that began with a misreading of my point.
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Alex,
I would like to apologize for misreading you. I was responding only to your comment about the patients' responses having been 'depressing.' I was simply observing that their responses wouldn't have been depressing to me.
But you have observed that I misread you and for that I apologize. How many times can I write I am truly sorry that I misread you? I am sorry. Period.
However, I have enjoyed thinking and writing today about the problem with tests--and I did in no way mean to indicate that these tests and their problems were related to you. I am deleting everything I wrote so that it cannot offend you any further. And I do apologize for having misread you although I was just responding to your use of 'depressing.' I am sorry that I went down the path that ended up annoying you.
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WW - You just deleted parts of what I was about ready to respond to... one of my favorite posts here in a while... no worry... ... and no need to explain why... it's not like I haven't deleted posts before... (although after very careful thought and a day or two resting on my own and others perspectives... especially with the world of good people here!)  dxb - Your advice was well placed.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
They test kindergarten kids to see if they're suitable?
well, they need to know in which kind of class they're to be placed. sadly, some kids of Kindergarten age are not really ready for school. it needs to be determined what kind of help they will need to be ready.
that being said, the tester at that point was an idiot.
and that being said, our reliance on(often, single) standardized tests to determine whether schools are doing a good job or not, is even more idiotic.
formerly known as etaoin...
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Synchronicity? Coincidence? or.....
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
formerly known as etaoin...
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
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