|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
There's an interesting article on the transition of language from animal grunts to full-blown language on today's Nature Science Update: http://www.nature.com/nsu/030120/030120-3.htmlI wasn't able to make the link at the bottom of the page to the full article work. If anyone else can maybe there's more information there. I'd be interested in y'all's comments on this hypothesis.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
I think you had to have a subscription to the journal to get the full text. I managed to access this through my university's online journal system. If anyone is interested in seeing the .pdf file (which I haven't read yet), PM me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
This is fascinating stuff, Faldage. Thanks for the link (and the article returned a "not found" message for me, too)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Link opened fine for me...thanks, Faldage! We've had much intriguing discussion here on this subject. I know there's a long and interesting thread about it, but here's something I found from Aug. 2000 started by (look consuelo!) "yooper" while I'm looking for the other link: http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=3225
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I've looked cursorily at the article Bean has thoughtfully provided. It is chock full of math.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77 |
Wow, I went into those old threads Juan posted and got lost in there. First I found something I wanted to quote, said by one of you guys 2 years ago(!) about human language and conceptual thought being locked in a spiral of mutual growth, each forcing the rapid development of the other. When I went back into the thread to see who exactly said that I found a whole new set of comments, which were hidden from me before.
And then I came upon an impertinent entry by dear Milum, when he was a 'stranger', calling all you old-timers 'exhalted grand pooh-bahs" or some such thing (my sentiments exactly when I first checked in). Then he took off on one of his wild and enjoyable rants. I liked it so much I have saved it in my word files.
When I looked at the date of that post, to see when he was so new to the board, it was September 10, 2001!
Oh, my. And as I went on I wondered what happened on the board that fateful next day, but as I continued, a few posts popped up for that day and even into the next. And while they were spare, they made not one mention of the disaster that shook our world. I am quite sure it came out in other places here. I assume that all of you would come here, to each other for reassurance and comfort, to express your shock and your anger, and perhaps profess your faith. But it just struck me that there was no mention of any of that whatsoever in that particular thread. The talk simply went on. Subdued, but it continued. And I guess that's ok as well.
But back to this thread.
So, *HUMAN language is what you are specifically talking about, I think. That does not then preclude the possibility of other forms of communication as language, be it cetacean, higher/lower primate or butterfly, from existing and functioning. I studied primatology, and deeply believe that the great apes (man included) are all capable of spiritual thought and self cognition, and I would venture at the least that the higher cetaceans are as well. Why not?
But the acquisition of (1)Human language bundled with (2)bipedalism, which allowed for (3)tool use (and *my have we gone off the deep end as a species with that one, up to and *including the use of a plane as a weapon of mini-destruction!)is the combination which leads us to *this place where we ask tsuwm for just the precise word to explain what we really mean to each other.
It's all good
mm
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77 |
While wandering around chasing the ghosts of some of you and some of these ideas, I found this reference to a special Sci Am that some of you may have seen, a whole edition on human language. Milum, did you ever get it? Anyone else see it? I'll try to find it in the library.
m
http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=announcements&Number=72418
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
MM and anyone else posting URLs to AWAD threads: You don't need anything past the number identifying the post. Thus: http://wordsmith.org/board/ showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=announcements&Number=72418 works just fine. You can delete all of: &page=&view=&sb=&vc=1#Post72418This keeps the post, and, if you are viewing in flat mode, the thread from getting wider than the page you are viewing it on.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
It amazes me that anyone would think to, or want to, quantify the differences between a speaker's preferences and a listener's preferences, though I suppose it could serve some purpose. But I don't think we need to know the value of the relative weightings to tell us that language development can come in leaps. All it takes is common sense. Start with the fact that we are a species full of high curiosity, and that we need/want to know everything we can about the world around us. This would have been especially true of homo erectus--they would have needed to know, for ex., that "grnk" meant, "Run! A lion is chasing me!", not, "Hi, how are you today?" Once they realized how handy language could be, don't you think they would have expanded it as fast as possible? Look at infants: once they grasp the fact that things can be named, and that they can use language, they just take off, linguistically. From using maybe 2 or 3 words at a time, which is typical of 18 months old, they'll most likely be using full sentences by 24 months. Look at Helen Keller: once the memory of wah for water was brought back to her, her desire to learn was insatiable. About Sept. the 11th., mm, yes, we did have threads on that. Nerves, needless to say, were on edge, and a couple of times the discussions got fairly heated. That was when it was decided that discussing politics, esp. potentially-fraught politics, here, was better not being done. I too, went back to those threads (not sure I 'preciate being referred to as a ghost, though!  ), and noticed something: when I clicked on a link to another AWAD thread here, a new window opened with it. However, in one of those links when I clicked a link to another thread, that one took over the window of the one I'd been looking at, instead of opening up another window. Anybody know why?
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,372
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
220
guests, and
2
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
