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veteran
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veteran
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Dear Bill,
Of course I would not like my kids being tried anywhere in which the laws were not applied justly - regardless of whether they were in the service. But, say a foreign citizen were charged with a crime in this country, and some other country insisted that we didn't have jurisdiction over alleged crimes - in our own country (e.g. the Sheinbein base).
OTOH, I guess I could see this if there is reciprocation. If a Korean soldier is accused in the U.S., is he then tried in ROK?
My point isn't necessarily that we should change things, btw, only that the status quo is bound to engender bad feelings.
It's very easy for even an adult soldier to make a mistake and get killed by a tank. (According to my dad who was a tanker, it used to happen all the time.) It's absurd, I think, to insinuate that the soldiers were necessarily doing anything wrong to cause the deaths. But without knowing the details it's also wrong for me to conclude that the girls could have or even should have known they were in any danger.
Addenda
I was thinking the girls were 5 years old, but I musta confused them with something else I was reading, because the article cited above refers to them as teenagers. Still, as I said, even an adult can mistakenly get a little too close to one of these things when it's moving.
It was a 'tank' with a mine-sweeper mounted on the chassis.
No idea what the actual details were in the case - would be nice if someone could track down what was discovered.
It's true that many will use any pretext whatever to criticize the US, but that that doesn't mean that all criticisms are wrong.
The Army said it accepts full responsibility for the tragedy. It would not seem fair to prosecute a soldier for carrying out a lawful order that happened to kill a civilian - even in the U.S. If they accept responsbility, I wonder if they are looking into changing policy - whether it's changing their own SOP or educating locals about the hazards of playing or walking too closely to one of these behemoths.
k
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear FF. Quite so. I think that if Soojin knew facts suggesting significant negligence on the part of the two soldiers he should have suppied them. At this point it seems likely that a tragedy has been used for political purposes. I found several stories about U.S. servicemen being accused of rape on Okinawa. In one of them the suspect was turned over to Japanese authorities. I could not discover end result, though. http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/02/okinawa.rape/
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
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All soojin did was to supply a link. He made no statement about what he believed happened or whether he thought the outcome of the case was justice or injustice. He also stated that he was sorrowful, but, again, he made no accusations or excuses.
I think that's a perfectly reasonable standpoint.
Loads of unfounded assumptions being made here, folks!
- Pfranz
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Loads of unfounded assumptions being made here, folks.
I'd say these following statements in the link provided by soojin qualify as unjustified and unfounded assumptions.
>We were furious about killers who call it simply an accident.
We are furious about we ourselves who are unable to do anything to the killers.<
>"The two girls who lost their lives by the US Army--
US Army court in Korea pronounced the two killers not guilty..."<
Surely you see the tone of the link if you've read it, Pfranz, and so your "perfectly reasonable" must be that dose of gasoline you like to throw on the American-bashing fire in your usual inimitible way. And I think milum's response was fair, polite, and to the point. Of course the death of any child is a horrible tragedy, especially when it's sudden and accidental, and pains me to no end. But, Cap, I can't allow you to make a lark of two young men who were involved in one such horrible accident, and consent to their being made into evil killers just because they are Americans. All the facts and reports, even in the Asian press, amply state it was an accident...that the turret scout even tried to warn the driver but it was too late. To paint these young men as evil killers just because they are American soldiers is to say the same of the son of one of our dearest friends on this board, and I can't, and won't, allow that.
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stranger
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stranger
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stranger
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stranger
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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This paragraph from the article link you just posted is insightful, soojin:
>Attorney Kim Hyun-soo of the USFK's Judge Advocate Division explains that the U.S. judicial system makes it more difficult to prove the charge of the accused than in Korea because of the U.S. law focusing on human rights protection and requiring prosecutors to prove the allegation "beyond reasonable doubts."<
...as well as the fact that you took the trouble to highlight every US and us wherever it appears in every word in every paragraph throughout the entire article in blood red!
...and also the fact that you didn't have the courtesy to respond to any of the posts here, and just put up another link.
(what say you to all this, Pfranz?)
soojin, as you already know, your presence is very welcome on the board, and I (and I'm sure all the others) look forward to many more linguistic and insightful exchanges with you...but perhaps you're too new to know that long ago, after our experiences in political discourse after the terrorist attacks on September 11th, we reached a consensus that postings for the sole purpose of any political agenda were not in harmony with the linguistic focus of the board. We have lapsed into such discourse a time or two, albeit in a much more civil and generic tone than in the past. But we try hard to avoid such discussions openly here. (however, you're welcome to query anyone about any topic in private).
I fear this thread is now on a track to opening old and new wounds among friends, and I suggest this would be a good point for it to cease...IMHO.
This will be my last post to this thread.
[Edit: gee, thanks for that fusillade of extra links, soojin...I won't be opening them]
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veteran
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veteran
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I understand your unwillingness to continue the thread. The blood red appearanc of US in each of these articles is, of course, intended as you suggest. You haven't missed anything with the articles. None of them contains any information at all about waht caused the accident - how it came about.
For all we know at this point, they were playing chicken with the vehicle. (Not suggesting that's the case, only pointing out that the Korea Times articles are spectacularly uninformative.)
It seems very clear that the author(s) of these articles as well as the rioters are much more concerned about exacting blood than they are about determining what happened.
k
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old hand
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old hand
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Well now soojin, are you so inept in the english language that you can't respond to a simple and direct question...
Are you saying that the two americans driving the tank ran over and killed the two young girls with deliberate intent?
If so, may God forgive your ignorance and bless your country.
Milo Washington.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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http://www.korea.army.mil/pao/news/021105.htmHere is a quote from above URL, stating court martial found no negligence or intent in the deaths. "Ambassador Hubbard: Let me try to answer your first question, and then perhaps General LaPorte can answer the second one. It is quite clear that U.S. soldiers operating a tank during a combined exercise on a public road in Korea killed those two young girls. We take responsibility for that. The question is, does that constitute a deliberate act of murder? No, of course it didn’t. Did it constitute a negligent act? Well, the jury in this military judicial proceeding concluded that, no, it wasn’t a negligent act. It was a terrible accident, a tragic accident, but not one caused by intent or by negligence."
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