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Dear jmh, Your post was pure gold. Nodding my head here in agreement, WW 
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Carpal Tunnel
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Wow, that Mileva (in Jo's link) was certainly maritorious [cross-threading e], but not, apparently, meritoriously.
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old hand
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old hand
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It is a question of choice that every woman should make alone: do I want to be a house wife? Do I want to be a professional and earn the money? What is my choice – a brilliant career and no family or a less successful career but I want to have children as well?
That's the part I see as unfair. The men don't have to choose. They can have a family AND a career because (a) they are paid more, and can hire help, and (b) they aren't expected to put the same amount of time in at home [as a woman would], especially if they play their cards right and get a non-demanding wife. Whereas the women are forced to make that choice.
Through school I have noticed that the women who are in science are quite bright, brighter than the average of the men in their class. In other words, the "more average" women (who may still be very smart but not brilliant) are somehow steered away from science, while no one steers the "more average" men away.
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Carpal Tunnel
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re: (viki post above)Cleaning – washing - cooking –mending is not taking a lot of time anymore, thanks to vacuum-cleaner, washing machine, microwave etc.
Time saving devices don't save time!
women spend about the same amount of time cleaning now as they did 100 year ago.. 35 or so hours a week.
(they spend less time sewing, knitting, darning-- and now purchace ready made clothes, blankets and other textiles.)
Yes, washing machines make washing clothes easier.. and as a result, every one wears fresh cloths daily! we don't were the same dress for a week and the same slip, and the same underwear. (changing to a fress one on the sabbath or sunday as religion dictacts)
yes, washing machine make washing clohtes easier and we now change our bed sheet weekly, not just take the top sheet and move it to the bottom, and wash only the bottem sheet.
Yes, vacuums get our rugs cleaner.. but it takes about the same time sweep a carpet as to vacuum it, (but the vacuum will keep it cleaner) yes, we don't have take the carpets out once a year, and beat the dirt out that sweeping missed, but we also have more carpeting!
Middle class home had very little carpeting, certainly not wall to wall. floor coverings were canvas, or linoium, if not plain wood, with a small woven rag rug at the bedside.
last time i checked, it took just as long to peal a potato today as it did 100 years ago.. and that potato doesn't cook any faster. sure i use frozen foods to have a greater selection of foods out of season (and i am very glad of it) but frozen foods aren't faster to cook.. a pot roast takes just as long to cook as it did 100 years ago.
and setting the table? clearing it? washing dishes. maybe that is a bit faster but you still have load, unload. the dishes don't dance there way from cupboard to table to dishwasher to cupboard.
and we have more dishes to wash. we don't have a one pot boiled dinner of cabbabe, carrots, potatoes and a bit of beef or sausage. we have vegetable cooked seperately, and a salad, and salad plates.
we eat more food (well, that not really an improvement), fresher, cleaner food and a much greater variety.
yes, stoves are easier, i don't have haul wood, or coal, or clean out ashes or clinkers..
In my 35 hours, i can have the lifestyle of a rich person with a housefull of servants, from 100 years ago.
time saving is a misnomer..
modern day appliances do not give us more time, but more luxury. the middle class (and the poor!) have the ability now to live a life style that was limited to the very rich.
and this improvement in cleanliness, has improved our health--cleaner clothes, means most of us don't know about bed bugs, or fleas or lice. We no longer live in house that are infested with mice or rats or other vermine. but please, don't say we spend less time cleaning!
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old hand
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first, there is some, but not a great deal of sexual dimorphism in humans. ~ O'troy By the way, anyone know where I can find a wife? I can't imagine that Einstein had to put his books on one side while he did the ironing. ~ jmh Time saving devices don't save time!
women spend about the same amount of time cleaning now as they did 100 years ago.. 35 or so hours a week. ~ O'troy That's the part I see as unfair. They can have a family AND a career because (a) they are paid more, and can hire help, and (b) they aren't expected to put the same amount of time in at home [as a woman would], especially if they play their cards right and get a non-demanding wife. ~ Bean The error is in thinking that feminism is an intellectual issue. It is not. It is a social issue with no bounds in logic.(see above) ~ Milum
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Carpal Tunnel
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sweetum's, i caught it first time round..
see above
but you are absolutely right, the error is in thinking that feminism is an intellectual issue. It is not. It is a social issue with no bounds in logic.
dab nabbit!if you are going to be so agreeable, i will have no excuse what so ever for making you melt away with a barrage of kisses..
i came across an idea in "engines of Innovation"- a NPR show that has all its transcripts on-line (thanks, Dr bill for the link!)
it pointed out that science (and to some degee related fields like engineering and medicine were effected) was closely allied with theology in the past.(the 14 to 16th centuries especially) and in that past theology, was exclusively a masculine domain. to be a scientist, was something akin to being a priest. there was not the clear seperation then, as there is now between science (knowledge) and theology (belief in god). (galileo first studied for the priesthood, but abandon it.)
think about it, galelio had to present his text on planitary motion to religious censors for approval. learning about the natural world was a way to learn about god... (and the continues today, creationism vs darwinism, as if science must still act in partnership with theology. it happened, too with the idea of anesteasia for childbirth too.. Medical breakthoughs were considered "immoral" since the bible said woman would "suffer through childbirth"...to ease a woman pain, was anti-theological. )
it has become less so, with the erosion of the influence of the catholic church, but the lingering remnants of the idea of scienctist being members of priesthood -- an all male priesthood at that, continue. it is not a simple social issue, but one that is bound up, in delicate ways with ones faith in god.
feminism isn't just changing social stucture, it is also about changing faith! Luther and his 97 thesies, are childs play compared to this! (many anti-feminist will still quote scripture about a woman place!)
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Carpal Tunnel
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The error is in thinking that feminism is an intellectual issue. It is not. It is a social issue...
The error is in thinking that, if it is a social issue it can have no aspects that are intellectual. Feminism is, among other things, a reaction agains the fallacy that what may be said in general about females relative to males must apply in specific to every individual female with respect to every individual male. While this may be a social issue it also has intellectual aspects, since it addresses a failure in the logical process.
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OP
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Of troy,
if woman are equal, they have an equal chance at genius... there is not one norm for males of species, and other for females .
They are – should be, must be – equal in social sense, e.g. there is no reason why women can not have education, right to vote, right to be elected to the government etc. but there is not no point in denying biological difference between the genders. And one of the differences is that male sex is “innovative” and female is “stabilising”. Why most of the serial killers (I know only one exception) are men? Because men were selected by nature to be warriors so they are less sensitive to blood and terror of killing. There is nothing wrong with fewer bow to of troy women-geniuses if
women who are in science are quite bright, brighter than the average of the men in their class
When I saw the post by milum I though that I have an ally at last. But then I read
female bodies came smaller brains
oh, come on. The biological significance has the ratio of the weigh of the brain relative to the weight of the body. Is elephant smarter than chimpanzee? I believe the ratio Brain/Body W is the same for men and women.
In the USSR, engineering is also considered a masculine field, and engineer earn signifigantly more than doctors.
I don’t know the sourse of the data but AFAR the salary used to be approximately the same (~120 rubles) and to be a doctor has always been considered more prestigious than to be an engineer
That's the part I see as unfair. The men don't have to choose Bean
the life is never fair. I am just over 5 ft tall and Claudia Schiffer is 6 ft. is it fair?
i bet that our great grandmothers would say that their lives were unfair but we can change nothing about it. Men have their own choices. To marry – and be responsible for the life of the family or to stay bachelor (reminds me of Spinster & Bachelor thread) and enjoy thelife of a playboy.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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The error is in thinking that feminism is an intellectual issue. It is not. It is a social issue...
It is not so much a social issue as a cultrual issue. Different cultures see different roles for females and though in the Western world (at least) people may be more aware to feminist issues and the equality of men and women, the basic cultrual ideals of a woman's role still exsists and is the root cause of many prejudices.
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It doesn't strike me as an either-or situation. True, it's remarkable women were able to directly contribute anything to science or mathematics prior to the 20th century. The treatment was not just shabby, but rude in ways that most moderns would find incomprehensible. From Hypatia to Emma Noether, it wasn't that long ago that we in the west held values not too dissimilar from the Taliban.
That said, I think that a lot of what is driving the equity movements of today isn't science, but socio-political doctrine. Men and women are on average mathematically equal, because the universe is not otherwise just.
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