|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
in this case they are both irregular
A little more research shows that in OE, settan seems to have been regular. We perhaps think of it as being irregular because it isn't set, setted, setted but it seems the -ed got elided into the final t of set. I suspect the same of put but my AHD and my Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary are at odds as to the mere existence of the word putian, and it doesn't speak to the issue at hand anyway, so fuhgeddaboudit.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
a hen can either sit or set on her eggs
A Britlish hen never sets on her eggs.
Funny, I'd never associated sunset with sitting. Are you sure that's the derivation, Fal?
"The Sun rises in the East and sets in the West"
If I said the sun "sits in the West" it would mean something completely different - merely that the sun was positioned in the western part of the sky at the time I spoke.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
If I said the sun "sits in the West" it would mean something completely different
Exactly. It's not used that way. However, one normally sets something down transitively; if something sits, it's doing it on its own. When I sit in a chair I do so intransitively. I can set the book on the table, but I do it transitively. That the sun sets intransitively is an exception. It could be argued that the sun isn't setting, the horizon is coming up but I think that realization post-dates the normal usage by a few years.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
" Sit yourselves down", said the host. As TweedleZildian implied, words and rules about them go very wobbly in this area.  It could be argued that the sun isn't setting, the horizon is coming up but I think that realization post-dates the normal usage by a few years. Nice.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
As TweedleZildian implied, words and rules about them go very wobbly in this area.
I think that's because this rule, if it indeed it ever had any value and isn't just a collection of coincidences, is no longer, as the linguists like to say, productive. The lie/lay thang is very much ignored. I was having a discussion on lie/lay on Dave Wilton's wordorigins board some time ago and a couple of the defenders of the lie/lay distinction quoted Bob Dylan and Eric Clapton saying they couldn't imagine singing "Lie, lady, lie" or "Lie down, Sally".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
[...quoted Bob Dylan and Eric Clapton saying they couldn't imagine singing "Lie, lady, lie" or "Lie down, Sally".
While that's no recommendation grammatically, it's a matter of what "sounds" right. And Lie, Lady, Lie probably simply wouldn't have an been acceptable wording at the time. These days, of course, the words would be much more direct ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
it's a matter of what "sounds" rightThat's the bottom line (especially on sitting/setting ). Of course "lie" also has a double meaning which - especially in a song - may cause confusion and/or mondegreenery. and: Lay lady, lay = lay [yourself down] lady, lay [yourself down] Lay down, Sally = Lay [yourself] down, Sally Rest you in my arms = rest you[rself] in my arms ..blah blah 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Lay lady, lay = lay [yourself down] lady, lay [yourself down]
Of course this argument could be dragged out any time this "error" is encountered. It is also used to argue that the difference between lie and lay is minimal and can be ignored. I could do the same with bring and take or (Heaven forfend) imply and infer. The point is that this usage is quite common, to the point that it is becoming correct.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
or (Heaven forfend) imply and infer
Yikes!!® Forfend, indeed!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
Of course "lie" also has a double meaning
This reminds me of the autobiography of the late Eric Ambler, my favorite thriller author: its title is "Here lies".
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,373
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
155
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
