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Will one of you musicians please tell me what the term is for making a violin sound harsh and scratchy - other than badly played, that is? I noticed that in certain parts of the Welsh composer Karl Jenkins' composition, PALLADIO, (The theme music for those recent diamond commercials) there are passages using this technique. Thanks in advance!
Geoff the musically challenged
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I don't know, Geoff. There is a term détaché in which notes are articulated by lifting the bow, sometimes quickly, off the string. The type of articulation you've described is probably a type of détaché bowing, but with more vigor. I think I've seen the term--and I think it's Italian. I emailed my daughter--who sleeps late Sundays!--but she should respond by evening. She'll know the term if nobody else comes up with it here.
Bow regards,
Wordwondering....
Brainstorm! I'll post your question on Maestronet.com! They know EVERYTHING there (well, just about) about strings.
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Well, it's not a wolf tone, Dr. Bill. That I can guarantee you! ... though wolf tones are interesting to read about.
Here's what one of the maestronetters posted:
it is propably a strong staccato played sul ponticello (italian for on the bridge)you can listen to it in many 20 century works, (second movement of prokofiev violin concerto no1, bartok solo sonata, etc)as you know the sound in music shouldnt always be beautiful and mellow, sometimes this harsh sound delivers the pain and anger in music much better than a long , full of vibrato cantilena on g and d strings.2- playing sul ponticello for can be sometimes very difficult. i am playing know the second quartet of janacek and the first violin part has some very fast passages sul ponticello, and i had to work a lot for it.
Add edit: Here's what a second poster posted:
It may be a series of downbow chords played forte. Other than that it might be some sort of martelle storke.
I'm still not seeing the Italian term that is lazily sipping wine in the back of my brain...still haven't heard from my daughter either--she'll know!
There's another post I'll add here, too, soon as I find it.
Bow regards,
WolfWind
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Most of the posters on Maestronet.com seem to be going into the martelé court for the bow articulation. Even a beginner writes:
Actually, I'm a relative beginer,so I'm sure more advanced players could tell you. The only think that strikes a similar idea, was when I was learning martelé, the beginning (attack) of the stroke practically screeched as one really adhered to the string. But I'm totally unfamiliar with a stroke which is constantly screeching (except by us beginners!!!)
...
...but I'm not convinced yet!
How 'bout scratchicato???
Or screechacato???
Bow regards,
WolfWind
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...sometimes this harsh sound delivers the pain and anger in music much better than... Only sometimes?
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Will one of you musicians please tell me what the term is for making a violin sound harsh and scratchy?
Nigel Kennedy?
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Bill, I read your site. This is clearly not an accidental noise, but a definate technique. Still fun to learn about wolf notes, nevertheless! After reading WW's comments from Maestronet, I think she's got it! Thanks, WunderWind! It is staccato, so playing staccato on the bridge (sul ponticello) makes sense to me.
Slightly less musically ignorant Geoff
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I'm not sure about sul ponticello--this is an eerie effect. The bow does move across the strings right across the bridge in sul ponticello. The volume is dramatically reduced and the tone sounds, well again, eerie. If you move your bow arm rapidly, it sounds like shivering bones--it's used for dramatic effect.
I'm wondering about the exact tone you heard, Geoff--it would have been good to have heard it--and, since I don't watch television, me hears no commericials!
Curioser and curioser,
WordinWonderland
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Will one of you musicians please tell me what the term is for making a violin sound harsh and scratchy?
Nigel Kennedy?
Yeah, but then he actually stops talking and plays ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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I'm wondering about the exact tone you heard, Geoff--it would have been good to have heard it--and, since I
don't watch television, me hears no commericials!So, aside from your obvius mental acumen, we have to add TV abstinence to your list of virtues? Damn! Yer makin' evrybody else look bad! Well, if you want to hear it, see if your library has Sony CD #SK62276, Karl Jenkins, London Philharmonic, Diamond Music.
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The mind is a mysterious thing. I don't think this is the term you're looking for, Sweet Geoff, but out of nowhere this term suddenly came into my mind--and then I had to go to ten music-term dictionaries before I found the meaning!
Col legno A direction to string players to use the wood of the bow
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Col legno is probably not what you're hearing. The wood of the bow technique is usually a bouncing motion, heard most recognizably in Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique.
In most groups i've been in, a term like SCHEECHICATTO is probably what would have been used (for its highly descriptive quality). I've never played with a high-level orchestra though, so that may be a function of the less professional players and conductors I've encountered.
Most good conductors/educators don't get caught up in the language (especially when language is a barrier) so they used whatever word is most descriptive.
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Here's another response from a Maestronetter:
Can you give an example of a piece which uses it? If I understand what you're referring to, I think I remember a passage (several) that uses it in Polonaise by Wieniawski. It's détaché (forget about spicatto, it would never compare) and extra raspiness is acheived on the G string, close to the bridge. It's often accompanied by KTCHUH sounds on the attack by the bow, right?
I don't think it's col legno either because the wood on string, which is a very cool effect, isn't scratchy or harsh as Geoff described. It's whispery and somewhat metallic in effect--col legno, that is.
Geoff, I'll check out that recording.
Bow regards,
WordWolf wolf tones are a great topic of discussion among musicians and fiddle makers
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Just struck gold on Maestronet. Here's a post from one of the members there that includes a url for bowing terms. Should be fun to read through: I have found a URL with a list of definitions for the various bowing techniques.
http://www.bright.net/~hhelser/terms.html
I think the one you are refering to is
SUL PONTICELLO = Bowing is down near the bridge and creates a glassy sounding tone.
My teacher has described this type of bowing to me in one of our lessons. The tone is more of a whistle than a screech so I could be wrong, but maybe one of the others is what you are looking for.
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