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Toward the mantenance of that magisterium mentioned in tsuwm's recent post , two thoughts/suggestions:
In general, the substance of those dialogues arising in response to ill-meaning posts as well as to the feaux pas of new comers, form in rough, the elaboration of an informal, unwritten constitution or charter governing speech in a community of speech. (Leaving aside the anomoly of Wordapalooza). Since these elaborations tend to produce a lot of bad blood, it seems to me it might be useful to us to draw up a very brief charter to which members might refer or be referred when things seem to be getting out of hand. I do not suggest limiting discourse strictly; it is the nature of this group to be social and to wander off the topic of words. But efforts to so disrupt the group as to threaten its dissolution could be more easily thwarted if reference could be made to a clear and simple charter. (Given the style of this post, I would suggest someone else write it).
Second
Disruptive posts do more damage in the exchanges they engender than in the mere fact of their presence on the board. Understandably, persons angered by such posts will wish to say so. However, any elaboration AT ALL gives place for rebuttal and leads the way to the abyss. In a face to face community, one can make a show of ignoring a statement. That very often says enough, and if the purpose is to silence, it gives little room for continued provocation.
Therefore
I suggest the creation of a humorous emoticon signaling that the poster is ignoring the previous post. Placed beside the subject heading on the menu, or at the start of body of the message, it would say the essential and leave off the rest. And it might even say the essential playfully. If the offending party persists, they'd just get a lot of ignoricons from other contributors.
From New York, without spell checker,
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Disruptive posts do more damage in the exchanges they engender than in the mere fact of their presence on the board. Understandably, persons angered by such posts will wish to say so. However, any elaboration AT ALL gives place for rebuttal and leads the way to the abyss.
Amen and amen, inselpeter. When the disruption is ongoing and deliberate, I mean.
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The company I work for, which happens to be American although I am based in UK, has put together a list of what it calls "covenants". I am not too happy with the word, but FWIW here they are, offered without comment and just as food for thought. Every now and then, when things are getting out of hand in a meeting or discussion, someone calls "covenants!" - a bit as you might say "Time out!" I guess. Not all have direct relevance to us, but could be adapted if people thought it a good idea. I don't know whether it is or not, and I shan't mind if it is ignored:
1. Treat colleagues with mutual respect, trust, and dignity, and believe they are acting in the best interest of the company.
2. Help each other; ask for and give help and welcome it freely (it is not a sign of weakness). Go out of the way to provide extra support to fellow employees. Share experiences and lessons learned, both successes and failures.
3. Communicate early, honestly, and completely with all who have a direct interest in the subject. Listen to others' points of view.
4. Earn trust by accepting and honoring agreements, keeping promises, and discussing needed changes before acting.
5. Work to understand company goals and strategies and proactively support them through discussions, communications, and actions (for example, sharing resources).
6. Never undermine colleagues directly or indirectly.
7. Work jointly to resolve disagreements in good faith. If necessary, go to a higher authority together, then accept and support the solution.
8. Contribute constructively by exercising the highest level of professional and ethical behavior.
9. Promote continuous use of the covenants.
dxb.
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Re: dxb's list of covenant's
Something along these lines in terms of fostering mutual respect. More specifically, however, embodying the principles tsuwm set forth in "mageterium." In fact, his post itself, drawn up simply as a charter. The idea is the creation of a simple mechanism for ending immaterial and destructive controversies by employing principles to which the majority of us can agree. We are lucky to have a Jackie who can function fairly and positively in her role as administrator; in general, though, I think the principled anarchy (if I may be forgiven the oxymoron) that governs the board in its happier moments is best.
However, if lack of response be the sign of the ignoricon, I am content to let the matter rest.
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ignoricon
[timeout]not ignoring, thinking...
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I had a post just disappear off my screen again. I'll write it again. Excuse me if this is the second one you see on your side.
Insel, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of an ignoricon. This seems like a much more agressive response that really ignoring the offending post and not responding at all.
If you ignore the post entirely the person who wrote it can't argue with himself, but by adding an ignoricon you are egging him on. It is like raspberrying him.
As net etiquette site say that the offender should simply be ignored. ANY response whatsoever is a form of attention. And any attention will only drag on the agressive posts.
Do you see what I mean?
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<<do you see what I mean?>>
Yes. And I'm not at all married to the idea. It is probably not a very good one. It is not my intention to institutionalize rudeness on the board (and in saying that, I am making no inference from what you've written). I am looking for a simple mechanism to end discordant exchanges. The reason I suggested an emoticon is I though it *might* make a point without leaving much room to further strife. The problem I meant to address was that absent any clear-cut method for addressing offending posts, simply ignoring them has not seemed to function well to stem negative dialogue. On the contrary. I think this is because it builds no consensus concerning the impropriety of a given contribution. Absent a simple way to establish such consensus, responses to what may generally be deemed to a greater or lesser degree inappropriate tends to become too personal, too heated, and too drawn out. It seems to me -- and I may be wrong -- that people feel compelled to respond vehemently to what they deem offensive posts in order simply to establish a consensus. But that vehemence itself contributes, inadvertantly, to the creation and perpetuation of contention. And it is this dynamic which becomes truly destructive.
Whatever may be decided, the object of public statements, anyway, should be to diffuse rather than exacerbate *personal* tension. Not deference, perhaps, but cool heads and good judgment. We can fight instead about the greatest subject on earth -- who was it said being is language?
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>net ettiquette why reinvent the wheel? here are the ten core rules of net ettiquette; I hesitate to list them here because they all require a bit of elaboration, particularly Rule 3 in light of some of these ongoing discussions. Rule 1: Remember the Human Rule 2: Adhere to the same standards of behavior online that you follow in real life Rule 3: Know where you are in cyberspace Rule 4: Respect other people's time and bandwidth Rule 5: Make yourself look good online Rule 6: Share expert knowledge Rule 7: Help keep flame wars under control Rule 8: Respect other people's privacy Rule 9: Don't abuse your power Rule 10: Be forgiving of other people's mistakes for elaborations: http://www.albion.com/netiquette/corerules.html()
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Those standards are palatable to me.
Well, except, of course, the one about knowing where you are in cyberspace. I rarely know where I am in 3D space. Some allowance would have to be made for those of us who are spatially challenged.
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I agree with ewein and WW -- they sound very useful. How about elaborating?
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Computer-illiteracy strikes again...I didn't even know we *were* in cyberspace. What does that mean? Aren't we at AWADtalk? And me in my basement family room, in the middle of the night, unable to sleep?
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Rule 4: Respect other people's time and bandwidth
This one in particular takes a certain amount of education. Most of USns are unaware that many others on this board are paying strictly by connect time and don't want to be running around looking at just anything that gets posted. Specifically, this relates to the feature in which a person gets email notification of posts that have been responded to. This is the point that was brought up elsewhere with the phrase, read flat, post threaded. If you are responding to a specific post in a thread, click on the Respond icon to that post and not just the one at the end of the thread.
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Rule 5: Make yourself look good online Even if it isn't speaking literally it assumes some specific agreement of 'good'. There are plenty of perspectives as to what qualifies - AWAD has *proven that. Faldage - Just keeping things chronological! 
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since I chose to put emphasis on Rule 3, here is the elaboration:
Netiquette varies from domain to domain
What's perfectly acceptable in one area may be dreadfully rude in another. For example, in most TV discussion groups, passing on idle gossip is perfectly permissible. But throwing around unsubstantiated rumors in a journalists' mailing list will make you very unpopular there.
And because Netiquette is different in different places, it's important to know where you are. Thus the next corollary:
Lurk before you leap
When you enter a domain of cyberspace that's new to you, take a look around. Spend a while listening to the chat or reading the archives. Get a sense of how the people who are already there act. Then go ahead and participate.
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tswum, your cite is marvelous! How about elaborating?, asks byb. Bob, you'll find each rule elaborated if you you click forward in tsuwm's link. For even more detail, click to the "complete online edition" of the book from which the rules are taken. Repeating tsuwm's excellent citation: http://www.albion.com/netiquette/corerules.html[Jackie, there's your alb root again!  ]
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'Third Rule of Net Etiquette: Know where you are in cyberspace.' (see: tsum's two posts to this thread)
And
"Why reinvent the wheel" (also in tsuwm's first post to this thread)
Indeed. I think these rules are pretty comprehensive. The only thing I might want to look at is something more specific for rule 3. That is, a note about where exactly we are. -- Cyberspace, belM, is "virtual reality." Where we are, apart from in your basement, is AWAD Talk -- Like anywhere else, this place has its peculiar mores. They probably do not need to be codified. More I think about it, more I find tsum's periodic reminders of the purpose of the board exactly on target. It is a place to talk, teach and learn about words, to play with words. And when focused thereon, it tends to be a pretty congenial place to spend time. It might suffice to suggest that our administrator simply refer participants who may be straying a little wide to the rules of etiquette, especially to no. 3 in some AWAD-appropriate formulation. She might also refer those new comers to the same rules who may be having difficulty mixing. Lifers here might simply inform her in a PM of any such new comer-related difficulties they may be having, and the whole thing can be kept friendlier. As to inter-lifer strife, I would recommend the same, with the added suggestion that the lifer in question take a breath before continuing -- that cooler heads might prevail.
And the bandwidth business is something people might be reminded of from time to time.
Why not just refer newcomers to the advice for newcomers threads? Speaking as a former newcomer myself, this appears daunting. If they were referred there at the end of a message, the body of which were the simple rules of etiquette with the specialized rule no. 3, they would get at least that far.
IP,
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Recovering NewcomerYes! Aren't we all? She might also refer those new comers to the same rules who may be having difficulty mixing. Lifers here might simply inform her in a PM of any such new comer-related difficulties they may be having, and the whole thing can be kept friendlier. As to inter-lifer strife, I would recommend the same, with the added suggestion that the lifer in question take a breath before continuing -- that cooler heads might prevail.I really like this idea, insel, of channeling difficulties or grievances through the administrator, if Jackie's okay with it. A much friendlier approach to the problems of residents or the confusion of newcomers. I know it would have helped to cushion my sensitivities when I first came around. The Only WO'N!
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is cyberspace really different?
Couple of issues here.
The original was know where you are in cyberspace (EA). The rules of conduct are going to change somewhat from venue to venue. Conduct common here will get you censored on the Vocabula Review Forum, for example.
That notwithstanding, cyberspace is different from face to face conversation, for example, in that body language is completely missing. Some of us stubbornly resist the use of emoticons. They don't completely fill the shoes of body language anyway, since body language is largely involuntary and emoticons are anything but. Be that as it may, the possibility of misunderstanding is much greater in cyberspace than it is in real life; this must be taken into account, both from the persepctive of the giver and of the receiver.
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>Be that as it may, the possibility of misunderstanding is much greater in cyberspace than it is in real life; this must be taken into account, both from the persepctive of the giver and of the receiver.
Add in the factor of different nationalities, some people writing in a language that is not their own, different types of humour and you've got an extra layer.
I remember some time ago I discussed with someone how people in the USA speak so much more "nicely" to their children than we do in Britain. You'll often find British people reaching for the sick bag especially when faced with Barney (don't you just love him???!). The same words can mean different things to different people, without the context of a twinkle in the eye, a lot of humour is lost and wrongly interpreted as anger.
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cyberspace communication *is really different in that:
- there is no visible, emotional feedback loop, and
- there can be significant, sometimes critical delay in response
(this can allow a harmlessly meant comment to fester beyond recognition, comprehension or repair)
so in cyberspace, if you want to talk one-on-one, you should have some idea of the "persona" that you're communicating with, unless you're just going to chat. and if you want to join a multi-way discussion you should have some notion of what I've called the "dialectic of the board".
but in another way, it's not all that different. consider how a person has to mold himself to fit into any social setting, be it formal or informal; if you don't feel confortable with a conversation you just listen or you walk away. it doesn't usually pay to jump in with a viewpoint or attitude that runs contrary to the group flow; that's a sure way to be excluded before you've even had a chance. or, if the discussion is completely contrary to your way of thinking, you probably don't want to be part of that group anyway -- and the chances of reforming the whole group to your way....
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>are not the basic principles the same
In the end they probably are.
It might simply be that this is a comparatively new thing for many people. We've been talking to each other for millenia, we've been writing for a little less time, talking on the phone for a relatively short time and communicating on-line for a miniscule amount to time.
It takes time for people to internalise the method of communication and at any one time there will be people in a group with a wide variety of experience. It will take time to become more sophisticated at analysing the feedback that exists. From my own experience of my parents use of the telephone, it took nearly a generation for the ability to make full use of the telephone for seamless conversation to become widespread. Take up of on-line communication is significatly faster but we are still in the very early stages.
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are not the principles the same?
Yes, the principles are the same. Application of the principles can be drastically different from venue to venue. It is easy to use the term principles when what is meant is application of principles. If the time lag between originally introducing a subject and responding to a response to the initial introduction is great enough, we sometimes forget what we said in the first place and get side-tracked by the misunderstanding implicit in the response.
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Agreed: Faldage is making an important and valid distinction between principles and application thereof.
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and I would suggest that cyberspace is *vastly different than the telephone; to wit, how often have you picked up the telephone and started chatting with a whole bunch of complete strangers?!
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tsuwm, I wonder if your last paragraph above could cause someone to mis-read Rule 3 as saying, in effect, "What is, is how it will be, and if you don't like it, tough." To clarify, I repeat that as you already noted, t the gloss on the rule indicates a different meaning: "Get a sense of how the people who are already there act. Then go ahead and participate."
And of course this is tempered by the other rules -- I'd think particular emphasis would fall on the rules that come first. Rules 1 and 2 (and extracts from the gloss):
"Rule 1: Remember the human Do unto others as you'd have others do unto you. Imagine how you'd feel if you were in the other person's shoes. Stand up for yourself, but try not to hurt people's feelings.
Remember the Prime Directive of Netiquette: Those are real people out there. Would you say it to the person's face? If the answer is no, rewrite and reread.
Rule 2: Adhere to the same standards of behavior online that you follow in real life Perhaps because people sometimes forget that there's a human being on the other side of the computer, some people think that a lower standard of ethics or personal behavior is acceptable in cyberspace. The confusion may be understandable, but these people are mistaken. Standards of behavior may be different in some areas of cyberspace, but they are not lower than in real life."
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Keiva,
Do unto others as you'd have others do unto you.
What an excellent principle that is. One of my favourite names from fiction is Mrs Do-as-you-would-be-done-by from, I think, Charles Kingsley's "The Water Babies", a sad Victorian children's morality tale that I remember very little of now. Not even certain if she was one of the good guys, but she sounds as though she was from her name. But the name and the principle it embodies has stuck in my mind all these years.
That has to be a rule for life.
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Yes, Ken, thanks for that.......good sentiments.....good people.
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If I remember correctly Mrs. Do-as-you-would-be-done-by was a good water spirit. The story is about a chimney sweep's boy who is magically transported to Mrs. D's underwater realm (I think he dies first but I'm not sure). There was another character with a similar name but I've forgotten what it was.
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Oh, this board is now a democratcy? I thought is was a benevolent dictatorship, and Jackie was the dictator, oops, i mean administrator.
Since is it a private enterprize that Anu has been kind enough to share, its it his to do with as he choses. and he has chosen Jackie to administrate. Was it a good decision? i dunno.. time will tell (my opinion is yes, but hey, i've been wrong.)
Lets see how things go.. and lets not start second guessing her too soon. i think she has been here a long time, and has a good understanding of the rules. and of long standing behaviours, too.
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Our new administrator, Jackie, has the highest standards of anyone I know. And this board, which has been in existence for over two years, did too, enjoying healthy self-regulation with no spamming or threats of nuking such as you see in run-of-the-mill chat rooms --until recently, when it evidently became necessary to have an administrator.
Yeah, the Smithsonian article was great. Came out in December 2000, I think?
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Well what is private and what is public? there are plenty of private organizations that are function as public institutions.. i think of musuems, or gardens.. some of these quasi public places are free, and some require a paid admission.. some offer membership, and some are fully public.
the same goes for many of the plazas that exist in NYC, and other cities.. or the indoor covered sidewalks -- or malls.. are they public or private? and even public places.. like city schools aren't really open to the public.. you need to sign in, and have a reason to be there.
Yes, it is a public places.. but somewhere, there is a server, and a hard ware administrator, and electric bills, and back up tapes, and new copies of anti virus software, and the sortware that run the whole board. All of that is bought and paid for, and not by me, or you, or generally speaking by anyone here anyone! (but its nice to give donations, and Anu has asked.) so a good deal of what we see as a public places, is only public because of Anu's good will. and he has asked for donations.. he hasn't sold us stock! we aren't owners here, we are guests!
its easy to forget.. and to just think of it as fully public! Anu could pull the plug tomorrow, and this space could disappear!
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What you say is so true Helen. I think we all feel it is "our place" because of the many friends we have made here. But you are right, it is a private place to which we are allowed access. If I remember the article, it costs Anu some 500$ a month to keep it running. A good look at ourselves is important. Would you (that is the general you Helen not you specifically ) give 500$ of your hard-earned money to keep something going for complete strangers. Every single month! I am very grateful to Anu for this place. And I think his choice of Jackie as administrator was a wise one. Time will prove his wisdom I am sure.
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$500 a month????? Does Anu get any help beyond our contributions? Hate to sound dense here, but I'm dense here. I mean, are there advertisers, supporters, grants, anything else that would help in additions to contributions?
Thanks for shedding some light or sending me to a link so I can understand how this place is run financially. I am forever grateful to Anu for giving us this board.
Completely addicted,
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well, he could run ads, but don't you just hate them?
and he has a .org domain name.. i don't know if that requires him to be non profit or not.. (ask me about how to decode the numbers that make up a URL address, about sub net masks, and how many users a network can support, that i can do, but rules about who gets to use .org? vs .com? vs .net? i dunno.)
Anu does have small little ads in a word a day, and in the newsletters. but having an almost ad free site is pretty nice.
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Hi, WW , Anu ran this out of his pocket for nearly two years, I guess. But now, do read your daily E-mails down to the bottom; there's often a request for donations. And each weekly AWADmail now has a corporate sponsor, thank goodness. Also a couple of weeks ago he started his spring membership campaign (sounds like NPR! ). If you didn't see that let me know privately and I'll dig it up for you.
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I just don't see this as a private site.
Well, then I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree on this one, ewein. I believe it's a privately owned site in a public domain. My guess is that if Anu decides that this place has gone to pot, and he's had enough of it, he won't be asking for our opinion on whether to pull the plug or not! IMHO...
Can we get back to talking about words and language now?
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old hand
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he has a .org domain name.. i don't know if that requires him to be non profit or not
No, it doesn't, just as you don't have to be running a network or actually own a company to have .net or .com. Anyone can buy these three at just about any web domain retailer. There is, though, some type of restriction on . edu, .gov etc. I wonder, do you have to be a company in the UK to get .co.uk?
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addict
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While it doesn't pertain to a particular word, IMHO it very much belongs here. I like inselpeter's (and others who have replied) idea that we have some standards (constitution, agreement, whatever) on this board.
I don't disagree with you here, ewein, but I think we're discussing a moot point. I think you'll find most everyone here agrees that there should be standards (oopsie -- prolly shouldn't speak for anyone else) but haven't we discussed them to death now? Inselpeter's original post was perfectly legitimate and I'm sorry if I communicated in any way that I didn't think that it was a truly valuable post in the appropriate forum. Thus my suggestion was that we all get on out of I&A and get into the healthy, perfectly reasonable, high standard of discussions about words and language going on in the other fora.
Pack up yer wagons, folk... off we go to Q&A, Wordplay and Fun or even a little [cheeky grin-e] Miscellany! 
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>do you have to be a company in the UK to get .co.uk? No, my business has one and it is not a limited company, the rules have changed recently and are at http://www.nic.uk/rules/rup2.html
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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>>Thus my suggestion was that we all get on out of I&A and get into the healthy, perfectly reasonable, high standard of discussions about words and language going on in the other fora.
Hear hear, (or was it here here) hev, I agree wholeheartedly. Let's get back to the fun.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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the other fora.
yeahbut® ~ there's fiva
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Joined: Jul 2000
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old hand
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>do you have to be a company in the UK to get .co.uk?
No, my business has one and it is not a limited company
Actually, I meant more do you have to be in the UK to get .co.uk. Can you get that, or any other country specific address if you're in another country? Obviously, there's the famous complete purchase of Tuvalu's .tv domain by some corporation, but I'm not sure about the rules for other countries.
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Well, the rules for Canada are given here: http://www.cadomains.ca/rules.htm The gist of it is, to register a company's domain name to end in .ca you have to have a "strong" Canadian connection (certain percentage of employees, etc., being Canadian citizens or Permanent Residents). The trademark rule is interesting. You can register a domain name using only the exact wording of the trademark if that trademark is registered in Canada. So (for example) yahoo.ca gives me a Canadian version of yahoo.com, even though the guys at Yahoo! most likely don't live here.
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