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I have trouble imagining you being flummoxed by a dialect considering your facility in detecting the various elements in mine in our brief meeting, but I guess, from small beginnings...Indeed. You've hit the nail on the head there, Faldage. Twenty years ago my current interest in identifying dialects was born with my aforementioned fascination and things progressed from there. I once was flummoxed but now am profound.  I love turning things on their head aswell now by trying to identify the sources of those dialects - as I did with you. I've found that a lot of 'New worlders' will use various slang words specific to their ancestors even if only within their immediate family. A lot of Scots-Americans will say 'aye' without even knowing it and, if you watch the Coens' film Fargo, you'll notice that the characters (all of them descended from Swedish settlers) speak with a pseudo-Swedish accent. Post-edit. Just realised that I've become addicted. Oh, God!
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Thanks, Rubrick,
I didn't know he was an advisor to an inner circle, though I have some vague recollection that he wrote for a US newspaper for a while. That's an interesting fact to fit into my internal mosaic of him.
I'd heard he was going to Israel to set up a chess school and incorrectly assumed he would be staying, so that's where I thought his citizenship was.
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Cool thing for a dad to do, Bill. Almost a hundred volumes is a lot of Mark Twain.
I felt bad that I'd never read any and I'd hate to leave this earth without at least a taste of every item on the buffet. I made a point of reading a number of his short stories and one of the novels. I have the others and they're on my list. I also read a few to my kids. Every time my 12 yo hears about france, she says to me, "Daddy, do you remember in the Jumping Frog of Calaveras County, where he said he 'heisted himself up like a Frenchman?'"
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Dear FF: one thing that really burns me up is the fact that the "politically correct" assholes have been able to get Mark Twain's books removed from school libraries. Just because he uses the 'N" word he is accused of being racist. I will never forget the impact it had on me when I first read the passage where Jim and Huck are going down the river, and Huck is waked up during the niight by sound of Jim crying, and for the first time realizes how awful it was for Jim to be separated from his wife. No racist would write like that.
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Bill,
I don't know the exact situation regarding MT in schools. I used to read up on book banning and censorship, but my knowledge is not current and my memory is very hazy.
I guess I think that people should have some say over what their kids read. I'm pretty liberal in what I share with my own kids. Heck, I read 100 Secret Senses with the F word and all that in it to mine. I allow my kids to curse (with some modest restrictions like they can't cuss in public) and the very first movie I took my youngest to (at 4 yo) was rated R (something like "the last dragon" with Sean Connery as the voice of the dragon). But it's exactly because I want (demand) the right to raise my kids according to my own conscience, that I believe that other parents should have the same right. For those people who really do find MT offensive, I think schools should make allowance for it. I don't agree with their assessment of MT and don't for one second believe the book is racist. Rather, he's portraying a racist society. We know this because we've actually read it.
I try not to make any judgement at all of those other parents' choices and hope that they will extend me the same courtesy. Rather than try to foist my opinions (that every kid should get a healthy dose of MT, for example) on these others, I would like a school that would accomodate these other parents. And I really think it would be easy to do, if we would try to be a little patient with each other. No need to draw lines in the sand. To the maximum extent possible, I think we should try to facilitate instead of mandate.
Now, if the books have actually been removed from a school library, that's very different. Even if MT's writings were racist, they would still belong in the libraries. Song of Hiawatha is certainly racist. (And if I remember, the one about the village smithy was antisemitic.) Kipling was absolutely a racist. And no school library should be without Longfellow or Kipling.
In a more modern case, I think Harry Potter is a great story for kids to read, even in class (particularly in class). But I know some parents think it teaches the occult and for them I think provisions should be made. Regardless of whether some parents are offended, HP should be in the school libraries.
There's a difference between what kids should be required to read and what should be available to all kids in the school or public library. Now I'm an atheist. I don't care what other people believe, but I know what I believe. I wouldn't mind a teacher, say, using the bible in a class, but if they started preaching or something I'd get irritated pretty quickly. Nevertheless, I'd be somewhat surprised (and would make loud complaint) if there were no bibles in my kids' school library.
Probably this subject is a YART, but I'm not aware it's been discussed since I've been here.
To summarize, I agree with you about MT. He should be in every public school library. And he should be read by all kids. He does have some works that no one should find offensive. I think even his "offensive" works are not racist and would hope every kid would get a taste of them. But I wouldn't want to force any kid to do something against his parents' wishes.
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if I remember, the one about the village smithy was antisemitichttp://www.bartleby.com/102/59.html???
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Dear FF: I can't imagine what made you think The Village Blacksmith antisemitic. And I would be interested to have you give a bit of detail as to what "atheistic" means to you.
The Biblical "God" who is just an immensely powerful human is of course absurd. But those who think the world came about by chance are just as absurd. Chance builds up briefly but soon tears down again. I cannot understand how anyone can believe there is no Supreme Being. He is just too marvelous for us to comprehend.
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Thanks, that's not the one I was thinking of, so it's not the one about the smithy.
I just did a search and can't find the particular one. It's been about 25 years and I'm wondering now if I've confused the author. I'd be tempted to retract, except I have this very clear recollection of a very short poem - no more than about 12 to 14 lines, maybe, that was in the same book with Hiawatha.
It does seem possible though, that I misunderstood the reference in the other poem and got myself worked up over nothing.
Okay, let me drop this one for now and concentrate on Hiawatha. I loved the poem - one of my all time favorites. But I thought it was pretty racist (maybe that's not the right term, people seem to use that word for everything these days). At least it was seriously condescending - offensive even. Still, I loved it. And even if I didn't love it, I think it should be in school libraries, but that, say, native american kids shouldn't be compelled to read it.
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Bill,
As I mentioned to Faldage, I got the wrong poem. Smithy must have been the one I really liked and I confused it with the other one that grated.
Regarding the atheism thing, it's not important to my point. Just an example. Let me make it general. I think X. I teach my kids X. I have no problem with other people (teachers, for example) reinforcing X to my kids. And since I think I'm right, on some level I think it would be good if other people taught X to their kids, but I know there are people who believe X' (not X). And so, if other parents find X really offensive, I wouldn't want to do an end run around them and try to teach their kids X against their wishes. (Because I wouldn't like it if they did that to me.)
There's a distinction between what I believe we should read, what I think we should compel others to read, and what I think we should have available for everyone to read.
As for the ultimate orgins of the Universe, I claim utter ignorance. I do distinguish among a. personal deity (as espoused in the Bible, the Quran, etc), b. naturalistic (mystical?) versions (Spinoza, Einstein, etc), and c. the general versions of creator and/or commander-in-chief. I reject 'a' outright. I don't even understand 'b' and as for 'c' I think my belief one way or the other would be irrelevant. I'm sympathetic to religion, though. I think that people can control what they profess and how they act, but that for the most part they can't control what they actually believe.
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Re: ....At least it was seriously condescending - offensive even.... native american kids (say), shouldn't be compelled to read it.
if i omitted all the literature that was seriously condescending to women, i wouldn't have much to read.
writers, generaly write of their time... if literature is read, and explored, and put into context, it can still have value, no matter that it is, by our current way of thinking, seriously flawed.
Woman, the irish, poles, urkranians, negros, jews, blacks, chinese, japanese, aboriginal people from the americas, oz, india, the list of those slighted, and treated offensively goes on and on.. (the idea that literture classes consist of works entirely by and about dead white men has some validity!)
shakespeare is exceptional, he has both weak and strong men and women.. i don't think kipling would have included women at all, but his characters did need someone to be weak, and weepy, and to do their menial tasks like laundry, (but half the time is was a man-servant)-- and then you needed women to miss(sweet hearts back in england, lost and gone) or native women (hot, beautiful, and convenient for men to satisfy their lust with (but most of his characters where gentlemen, and wouldn't think to do that!, i'll grant)
even Harry Potter has Hermonine(?)-- a goody two shoes, nerdy, little tattle tale!
Dickens has great women-- a real wide range of characters from Dora, David Copperfields clinging, passive agressive wife, to Mdm LaFarge-- Twain doesn't! Polly and Tom's Aunt Bea are weak women, who look to men to solve their problems!
You might find with your daughters, as you look for books for them, there are very few with strong women (the exception is books written by women, about women, and generally considered for women.)
girls and women continue to read Little Women, or the Bronte sisters, or as we have discussed here Mrs Mike -- but woman's literature is still considered second tier. women still read all literature, men just read literature writen by men (a general statement-- just generaly true, not completely true.)
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