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Ispired by the message I received from fellow AWADtalk member, RhubarbCommando, "What with Oranges, apples and rhubarb, we have the makings of a fruit salad, here!" I decided to form a forum with the following question in mind: how did fruits and vegetables get their names? I've been especially confused by "pineapple". Is it really in reference to apples? Or am I sounding stupid by just asking that?  "A sobering thought: what if, at this very moment, I am living up to my full potential?" JANE WAGNER
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Carpal Tunnel
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I decided to form a forum with the following question in mind: how did fruits and vegetables get their names?The one contribution I can make to your salad is, unsurprisingly, kiwifruit. The name was chosen as a marketing tool after the fruit had been imported from China and bred into a marketable product. On this point, also, why is the country of origin of "kiwifruit" also almost the only place on Earth where the fruit is given its proper name? Whenever I hear that someone has kiwi for breakfast, I cringe. When spelled with a capital "K", "Kiwi" is a designation for a New Zealander. When spelled with a lowercase "k","kiwi" refers to the extremely endangered national bird of New Zealand. The edible product of Actinidia deliciosa is kiwi fruit. Please stop eating people and flightless birds, and enjoy your kiwifruit.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Thanks, Max--it's nice to know how to be politically correct in an area which I have not given much thought to.
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old hand
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>Whenever I hear that someone has kiwi for breakfast..<
I wonder how the fruit is called in Japan, since we heard of the Japanese taste for abbreviations..
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I seem to remember that the "official" name of kiwifruit was actually changed a few years back to something beginning with "z" (- zester? - can't remember)
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Carpal Tunnel
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I seem to remember that the "official" name of kiwifruit was actually changed a few years back to something beginning with "z"
The NZ Kiwifruit Marketing Board, in an attempt to distinguish its NZ-grown product from that of its competitors, badged it "zespri." I don't think the name did particularly well, IIRC
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enthusiast
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in japanese, it's usually "kiui", but "kiuifuru-tsu" is also used.
just wondering why "kiwi" can't mean both the bird and the fruit?
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cantaloupe comes from cantalupo in italy.
i heard that melons were bred to be soft, sweet and juicy from hard and bitter pumkin-like vegetables there.
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Carpal Tunnel
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melons were bred to be soft, sweet and juicy from hard and bitter pumkin-like vegetables
That could be a lesson for living, sweet william (which incidentally is a lovely flower).
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Pooh-Bah
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> I seem to remember that the "official" name of kiwifruit was actually changed a few years back to something beginning with "z"
I have a faint memory of this particular delicious fruit being called "chinese gooseberries" in UK when I was a child. Which seems reasonable if it originated in China, because it certanly does resemble a gooseberry in shale and colour.
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Pooh-Bah
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> I've been especially confused by "pineapple". Is it really in reference to apples? Or am I sounding stupid by just asking that?
Well, a + o, my old fruit, if you are stupid, then so am I - it is a name that has always puzzled me. Although it doesn't really taste much like an apple, I suppose it tastes more like an apple than an orange, or even a pear. It's general appearance is faintly reminiscent of a pine-cone, I suppose. Could this be the etymological base for its name?
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Pooh-Bah
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>sweet william (which incidentally is a lovely flower
It certainly is - but how about the Sweet Afton? That is also a beautiful flower (although also a fairly disgusting Irish cigarette!) which flows quietly through some of the most beatiful countryside in the world.
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Carpal Tunnel
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>I've been especially confused by "pineapple".
I don't know where it got the apple part, but it was called PINEapple because it definitely resembles a pine cone.
TEd
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just wondering why "kiwi" can't mean both the bird and the fruit""When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less." I guess my response belonged more in the "pet peeves" thread. "Kiwifruit" tends to bespelled as one word here in New Zealand. I have an "Australasian" gardening book, which like most things "Australasian" means that the percentage of non-Australian content is rougly equal to the amount of naturally occuring xenon in the atmosphere. This tome spells it as two words, which I guess is the standard outside the Shaky Isles. Part of the reason for the preference in NZ for "kiwifruit" is that the "kiwi" in the name derives from the informal designation for New Zealanders, rather than the Maori name for the bird. The Maori language is considered a "taonga" or treasure, and there is great emphasis laid on using it correctly. It's possible that this attitude is at least partly responsible for the preference shown for "kiwifruit." In the end, my response was probably more the result of cultural conditioning than linguistic dogmatism. Maybe if we all reverted to "Chinese gooseberry" the problem would be solved. The kiwifruit of today bears little resemblance to the small, tart fruit of a vine that grew wild in China, and, if I remember rightly, was considered noxious there. Sorry for the ramble, especially because it has tempted me to start an entirely new thread on some of the other nuances of New Zealand English which get overlooked by others. 
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One of my kids, who shall remain nameless but is probably not my daughter, has mislaid our Encarta CD. I tried several 'net sources with no luck, and finally decided to try the Bookshelf CD that came with our computer.
AND...it says that pineapple came from Middle English
pinappel (pine cone). Columbus introduced it to Europe in 1793.
Bookshelf also informed me that apple comes from Middle
English appel, which comes from Old English aeppel.
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Pooh-Bah
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Using the lateral thinking that allows us to meander wherever we please, I thought you might be interested in a local folly. Apparently pineapples are a sign of welcome, hence their inclusion in the stonework in imposing entrances to country houses. This pineapple is rather bigger: http://www.landmarktrust.co.uk/
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Ah yes, the Meander, another beautiful flower.
Bingley
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>Ah yes, the Meander, another beautiful flower.< Hey, watch out, or the megyne will come at you 
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Sorry,wseiber, but what is the megyne?
Bingley
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pinappel (pine cone). Columbus introduced it to Europe in 1793.
I find that rather difficult to believe, considering Columbus would have been dead for almost 300 years.
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Columbus would have been dead for almost 300 years.
Yup. I really ought to try being awake when I post.
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Which brings us back to the observation that apple used to mean any fruit. Well almost any fruit.
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Re pineapples : they're a sign of welcome here in New England. Many homes have brass doorknockers in pineapple shapes.
When friends visited from New Delhi (Mr& Mrs Roshan Lal Jaswal) we were entertained by the local Rotary club as my friend was a Rotarian in India (District 93 if I remember correctly.)
Since they are vegetarians Roshan and Leela were served fresh fruit & yogurt, the fruits arranged in a split pineapple. During his short remarks to the assembly Roshan mentioned that the pineapple is a symbol of hospitality in India.
So - a question : How did pineapple get to be THE symbol of hospitality? Apparently world-wide!
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Pooh-Bah
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Beginning in Europe in the late 17th century and extending into American during the 18th century, the pineapple became a symbol of hospitality and friendship. When New England sea captains returned from their long voyages to the South Seas, they would spear a precious pineapple on their iron gate to announce to friends and neighbors that the Captain was home and all were welcome.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Beginning in Europe in the late 17th century and extending into American during the 18th century, the pineapple became a symbol of hospitality and friendship. When New England sea captains returned from their long voyages to the South Seas, they would spear a precious pineapple on their iron gate to announce to friends and neighbors that the Captain was home and all were welcome.
Whoa, Sparteye! How do you know these things?
[impressed-as-all-get-out emoticon]
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Beginning in Europe in the late 17th century and extending into American during the 18th century, the pineapple became a symbol of hospitality and friendship. When New England sea captains returned from their long voyages to the South Seas, they would spear a precious pineapple on their iron gate to announce to friends and neighbors that the Captain was home and all were welcome.
Sparteye, I hope you're not making that up, because we bought a pineapple on the weekend, and we ate it last night, and of course I gave my husband the whole explanation. (Funny, you can't find decent Italian bread, cheese, or kalamata olives in Newfoundland, but hey - they get pineapples!)
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cantaloupe comes from cantalupo in italy.
This is where the English word came from, but why ever did the Italians call it this? It would translate as something like "the wolf sings" or perhaps "wolfsong." Is there some connection between cantaloupes and wolves of which I, until now, have been blissfully ignorant? Or perhaps, re-reading, this means it came from a place called Cantalupo, where perhaps wolves sang, without regard or relation to the presence of melons.
Thinking back to when I lived in Italy, I think they just called a cantaloupe "melone" - often served with some paper-thin prosciutto wrapped around it - mmm, the salty-sweet contrast, the hot Sardinian sun, the blue, blue Mediterranean...
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Hyla opines: Or perhaps, re-reading, this means it came from a place called Cantalupo, where perhaps wolves sang, without regard or relation to the presence of melonsThat's what the AHD suggests ( http://www.bartleby.com/61/53/C0075300.html suggesting either Cantalupo in Italy or Cantaloup in France.
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Cantalupo
I know Italian pretty well and have never heard the word cantalupo, but I suppose it's a word somewhere, if only in the dictionary. When I was in Italy, a cantaloupe was generally called melone, as were other melons, since that's the generic word for melon. Occasionally, when there was a need to distinguish between melons, a cantaloupe would be called melone di pane (bread melon) vs. a melone ad aqua (water melon).
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Thinking back to when I lived in Italy, I think they just called a cantaloupe "melone"
IN Zild, if one hears "cantaloupe", the person uttering the word may as well have"USn" tattooed in bright orange on their forehead. It is one of those words we think of as "American", while we call the fruit in question rock melon.
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getting back to pineapples-- the were available in Florida, the Caribbean, and other various places on the tropical east coast of the Americas(pre-columbian times)-- but seems to have been native to brazil. Columbus included some in his treasure trove-- and since pineapple can keep a long time-- they were still "fresh" when he got back to Spain. the name comes from the pina de los Indies-- (pine cone of the indies) -- as said else where-- "apple" was a generic word for a fruit-- so the name be came pine-apples pretty easily. The natives of brazil were the first to use them as signs of hospitality, too.
as for apples being a generic word-- its do to the nature of apple trees-- if you plant apple seeds-- they never come true to the fruit-- and apples have a lot of genetic diversity-- (something that most of us don't see, since now days there about 20 common varieties of apples available (and in many places only 5) and all of these varieties are pretty-- (the US delicious apple-- is the prettiest apple -- not a great tasting one.. but pretty) but in bygone days, when apples were grown for cider and pomace (the solid remain after cider pressing-- and animal food) people didn't much care what they looked like-- and there was a great deal of variety. So apples were small (ladies apples) and large (Rome beauties-- for those who know the apple --sometimes 2.5 to a pound --5 to 6 to a kilo) and came in green, yellow, red, and purple (I can't think of any common apple today that is purplish) With so much variety as to what was an apple-- apple was synonymous with "fruit"
I have read that the chinese word for apricots (no idea what it is) over 4000 years old.. There is evidence that apricots originated in china.-- but at for the rest of the fruits-- who knows? (and are rhubarbs a fruit? aren't they a vegetable? )
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Pooh-Bah
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***The origin of cantaloupes***
In some Sunday column a long time ago, I read that cantaloupes were bred for Spanish nobility, that they were highly prized and not deseminated.
In a more recent such column, a chef lamented the development of a technique to grow truffle mycillium--though not the fruit bodies. An oil prepared from this can be added to food and now anybody can have truffles. "We will just have to find something else," he said.
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I agree that my father (who is Italian, or more accurately, Sardinian) would only use melone but the word that we use for watermelon is something funny. Maybe it's Sardinian. (That info is hard to find on the web, I'll have to ask my dad.) By the way, there are a gazillion different types of melons in Sardinia, all seeming to be called melone. Sometimes you can find them at the stores (on the mainland) here under the heading "fancy melons". By the way, I googled "Italian watermelon" and got "cocomero". ?! Okay, I found the word - Anguria - which appears to be on a menu in a Sardinian restaurant in Texas. ?!?!?! NOW my head hurts!
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Years ago I read that there is a type of melon grown in India that is prized by gourmets around the world. The melons are grown in special fields where no automobiles or any polluting vehicles are allowed. Only horses are allowed in field and only if held to a walk. I have a vague recollection that the melons are bought and paid for in advance and that the world's millionaire Gourmets keep the existence of the highly prized melons a tightly held secret.
Any help from our Members in India?
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