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This is not apropos of anything, but I am shaken and must write. To all I offend by this, please forgive.
Thirteen years ago, when my elder two kids were in 4th and 1st grade, a mad gunwoman entered their school and began firing. Several were injured, many of whom I came to know in the next years, and one child ... an 8-year old boy, a friend of my daughter's ... was killed.
I have just now received a report that five schoolboys in Israel were murdered (more than 20 injured) when a lone terrorist infiltrated their school).
and all the memories have come flooding back.
I apologize; I should not have put this on the board. Thank you for your tolerance, and for your warm thoughts.
Ken
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My dearest Keiva,
My thoughts and prayers go to you and your family at this time. If I had a way to wrap you in my arms I would, and your children, and your wife, as well. You all will be in my prayers.
Angel
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My sincere sympathies are with all those bereft of children by the violence in that land, both Israeli and Palestinian. No doubt this latest outrage will see more Palestinian children die in retaliatory strikes, leading to more suicide bombings, leading to more retaliation from the Israeli army. Grief is grief, and each new round in the cycle of violence, which has thus far seen at least four times as many Palestinians killed as Israelis, just makes a solution seem further and further away. When one's eight year old child is killed, I suspect it makes little difference whether the killer wears a uniform or not.
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Dear Heart,
I am so sorry that your life has been invaded by that crazy woman; but also thankful that you still have your beautiful children. It just isn't "right", somehow, that children should die before their parents do.
Mr. Compton's (nice to see you back, by the way!) point about cycles is well-taken. "Well, he got me so now I have to get him back" mentality has been the cause of SO much destructive behavior. Consider the famous Hatfield-McCoy feud that lasted for generations. I cannot tell you how many people I met in the course of my work who had--no, lived, this attitude. Virtually every waking moment is spent keeping the fire of past hurts going, or else planning for some form of retaliation--even retaliation for future presumed acts! These are very tense, angry, and sad (British sense) people.
Someone really needs to be big enough to be the first to break the cycle. To my way of thinking, it is a mark of maturity and graciousness to have the attitude of: "Well, you did me wrong, but I choose not to return the same (at this time, maybe, depending upon the circumstances). What you did was childish and destructive, and I am not going to lower myself to that level".
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Keiva,
Thanks for bringing this to our attention and to our hearts. Nothing is more horrible than the murder of children who haven't even had a chance at maturity--and I cannot begin to imagine the mental torment of parents who have lost their children. I have personally known parents who have lost children tragically--and have seen these mothers become nearly like mad, insane women for years--out of touch with reality, suffering, making little sense in conversation--for years afterwards.
I suppose we all wonder what it would take to turn the brain of a murderer to compassion?
My heart's with you, K--
Theresa
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>I have just now received a report that five schoolboys in Israel were murdered (more than 20 injured) when a lone terrorist infiltrated their school).
And all the memories have come flooding back.
Strange, these memories come flooding back with respect to an attack on Israeli interests. Those well informed about the recent events, like yourself Keiva, will not have missed reports of attacks by Jewish extremists and the Israeli army on Palestinian children and schools, in which so many children were killed and exposed to similar horrors that your children were confronted with. Have these facts affected you to a far lesser extent, Keiva? For this would in turn represent the same double-standard all those actively caught up in the conflict continue to disregard. The memory of innocent children killed in such brutal attacks can thus, in these warped minds, be used as leverage for political and military objectives.
Even in death, these children are used as tools with which to drum up support for the machine of war, and it makes me sick to the stomach.
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B-youth, I do find a difference between an attack in which children are injured, and an attack deliberately targeted against children. And with all due respect to you, I don't think there is anything improper about me feeling deep sorrow at the event I mentioned.
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difference between an attack in which children are injured, and an attack deliberately targeted against children.
I too acknowledge this difference which is, I'm afraid, in no way warranted in this case.
>Are you trying to be deliberately disagreeable?
I think this is a trait which has more commonly been attributed to your person.
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In reply to:
Even in death, these children are used as tools with which to drum up support for the machine of war, and it makes me sick to the stomach.
Well said. There is also the question of whether 18 year old seminary students should be called children. One report I read said that they were attending the religious school prior to military service, so they were hardly children. It is tragic to consider that, had they not been killed, they would have gone on to serve in the army that has killed so many other children, perhaps even doing so themselves.
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Keiva, must you continually amend and revise your posts? My last post has no reference now, as you have felt it necessary to omit part of your original post. You really must stand still if any sort of sensible discourse is to arise.
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There is also the question of whether 18 year old seminary students should be called children.Well put, Vernon. What you are seeing is the latest round in a contest which began aeons ago, was interrupted rather abruptly by those well-known democrats, the Romans, in 70AD and which resumed in earnest in 1948. I don't believe that either side really cares about its children, because neither side shows the slightest sign of wanting to negotiate a lasting peace in which they can grow up without being exposed to old hatreds and more modern justifications for their continuation. Until the will to do so emerges from the rubble of suicide bombs or retaliatory attacks on residential areas, the children are going to continue down the path of early alienation and the support of this seemingly everlasting war. Ain't life grand? 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Keiva, must you continually amend and revise your posts?
My basic text was left unchanged, sir. I merely put it in white -- for the benefit of those who might not wish to read it -- and added the note at the end.
Unless I am perhaps misunderstanding you.
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I have withdrawn this post after receiving a private reminder that AWADtalk is not the place for political debates. My apologies, everyone.
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If what you say is true, Vernon -- if the Israeli army were targeting ambulances in the process of giving aid -- it would indeed be grotesque. But per the Reuters account, I see only that such has been claimed by the palestinians, not that it has been substantiated. If it should be confirmed, I will join you in condemnation. I trust you do not object to me waiting until the facts are verified. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20020308/ts/mideast_ambulances_dc_1.html
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This started as a thread written by a distraught father at midnight. Though it was not his children who were killed and injured this time, it brought back a flood of emotion of a time when it could have been his children. He brought this to us all, his friends and acquaintances, at an hour when there was no one else around. This was not put out here as a political forum, it was put here as a cry for help, from a "Shaken" man. Let's keep that in perspective.
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I think it's telling about the community built here that someone would feel able to share their hour of need.
Alas, War isn't known for bringing out the best in us.
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...Let's keep that in perspective.There is not a single post above that doesn't do that. ---------------------- Politics (for me) is *more about how people relate (even politicians do that  ) than it is about the perspectives they bring. Both are *bound to be different for different reasons... ...but I digress (into politics, of course).
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on occations in the past, the subject of UK/Ireland and Norther ireland has come up. i read these post, but i almost never comment, because, i am very aware that i have a biased attitude.
pick any year in the past 1000, and look at a map of the eastern edge of the mediterian. power has shifted, peoples have moved. It seem evident that both jews and non jews have lived in the area for 4000+ years. as for what patch of land belongs to who, and as of when, its hard to say.
I tend to side with israel, it is one of the most democratic states in the area. it has done more to improve the land, develop resourses, and provide opportunites for all the people living there, and improve peoples lives with job, housing, and modern infrastructure. but, israel, just like my own country has not been perfect. it has made real, and political blunders.
i don't read enough, or know enough to argue my case that we (the world as a whole) are better off with the state of israel, than we are with out. but it does exist, and jews, (jewish cities, and settlements) are part of the tradition of the area-- not just since 1948, but for thousand of years. this is not a new idea, or some foriegn influence that is being impossed. it is simple a continuation.
unfortunately, warfare is also part of the tradition. the only time there has been any peace, is when a third party has come in and imposed it. It would be nice to think we as humans have evolved to a point where we could learn to live with our neighbors in peace-- but i know, as much as i want it, i am not unbaised-- and i am part of the world problem!
i think this is not really the place to discuss the situation in the mid east, or in ireland, or a handful of other places around the world. it is all to easy to present facts, and at the same time, miss the true picture.
In a total personal way, i sometime talk about my childhood.
nowday, Museums, especialy NY's Natural History Museum, are dear to my heart. i love going to them, and i support them financial. When i was child, the NH museuem was total free.
My parents never, not once took me there. or to any of the other (also free!) museums around NY.
(sounds like they neglected culture, doesn't it?) but they did take me to the zoo, and botanical gardens, and to see the UN (repeatedly to the UN, my Father loved to vistit the UN, did i mention we often went to the UN?) and we got taken to see all the big ships, or navy ships that came to port. (the first atomic submarine stop in NY in 1963/4, and i was taken to see it, and all the big liners in their day.)
so the fact is, NO Museuems. the reality is, i was taken to see many important cultural things in the city-- just not museums.
it's real easy to list facts... and miss the over all picture. and when it comes to Mid east, i know i don't even have all the facts!
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He brought this to us all, his friends and acquaintances,
Understandable that he would seek the comfort of friends, but here's the rub: it's been made abundantly clear that the overwhelming majority of this board's participants are NOT his friends, and are no longer his acquaintances either.
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Hmmm ... a brand new sign-in name, "debunker". Someone who has a strong personal view and purports to speak for the "overwhelming majority" -- while concealing his or own identity.
With all respect due to you, I continue to see nothing improper about me feeling deep sorrow at the event I mentioned. Do you share that sorrow? If so, you and I have a common bond on that basis, and we can leave it at that.
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...clear that the overwhelming majority of this board's participants are NOT his friends, and are no longer his acquaintances either
Right on, debunker. And I might add that it is to the credit of this overwhelming board that we pretended to be keiva's friend and treated him cordially and kindly, when behind his back we really hated his guts.
How, I wonder, did this guy so quickly make Pooh-Bah? Was he double promoted? If so by whom? I demand a look-see by those of authority.
My oath,
A concerned Awad Member.
Awad# 108091
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Without commenting on the merits of either side -- and at the risk of alienating one faction or another -- I have to point out that this discussion is deteriorating, as did some other threads before it, and that the Board's purposes will be better served when it returns to where it ought to be.
Why are we sinking to the very incivilities that are being deplored in the earlier posts in this very thread? It isn't necessary to respond with escalating hostility to every probe or barb...
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I do not pretend to know who's in the right in the Middle East, in Northern Ireland, or indeed on AWADtalk. What I am sure of is that in all these conflicts both sides are in the wrong through sheer bloody intransigence and an unwillingness to cry a halt and let peace be declared before they've had the last word,thrown the last bomb, fired the last shot or whatever. What kind of a species are we, for goodness' sake, that we revel so much in holding grudges against each other and seeking revenge?
On a more optimistic note, peace does seem to be breaking out in Maluku and Poso, where Christians and Muslims have been slaughtering each other for the past two or three years.
Bingley
Bingley
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I don't think there is anything improper about me feeling deep sorrow at the event I mentioned.Nor do I. --------------------- Thank you, Bingley! ...peace does seem to be breaking out in Maluku and Poso...Is it so sudden to warrant the term(s) 'breaking out'? I shall look for remnants of this information here, in this country where, unfortunately, very few focus (or care much) about peace.  Please provide a link if possible. Peace
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