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OK, ok! I did the search here, and I don't understand the whole nine yards bit, and tsuwmn's link from last year (March) didn't take me a millimeter closer to finding the first thing about the whole nine yards.
And, of Troy, that construction description of yours didn't make sense to my mind, which is always way out there far from things like cement! Ooh, my aching feet stuck in cement! Can't move much.
So, from Ozoneland here, what is this whole nine yards bit about? If it's construction, is it nine square yards?
Completely spaced out on this one,
OrB~ and please pardon the introduction of a repeated topic
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was the link to Quinion? http://www.quinion.com/words/articles/nineyards.htmyou don't like his non-answer? there are some mysteries in our language and it would appear that this is one. Quinion: If you're hoping for a definitive answer, you'd better buy a crystal ball. I have to say straight away this is one of the great unsolved mysteries of modern etymology, for which many seek the truth and almost as many find explanations, but hardly anyone has a clue. What we do know is that the phrase is recorded from the 1960s, is an Americanism (it's nothing like so well known in Britain, for example), and has the meaning of "everything; all of it; the whole lot; the works". But there are no leads anyone can discover to a reasonable idea of where it came from.
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Gotta go with tsuwm (and Quinion) here. There's zillions of explanations and every one of them has something seriously wrong with it.
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Dear tsuwm,
The link I tried took me to a page where there were just a lot of choices, so I clicked on "Phrases," and among the phrases listed was the notable absence of "whole nine yards." I probably was off-course.
Thanks for pasting the mystery.
All for life's mysteries,
OrB~
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You can always count on the Board for the whole nine yards on any subject!
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the whole nine yardsAw, everybody knows it came from "the full monty"!  which has a similar meaning and has the same etymological haze surrounding it...try searching the board for that one if you have a few days to spare, OrionsBelt~...another much-discussed (to say the least!) enigma. My apologies to the board for bringing the f.m. phrase up again, but it did seem relevant here.
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Dear Whit,
And to complicate matters, consider the Emperor's new clothes being made of the whole nine yards as he showed off the full monty!
Rocketing outta here into the stratosphere,
OrB~ -- Wordwind -- Whatever -- Life is confusing!
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Me, I'm still working on the whole nine inches! Cannot tell whether I'm coming or going here. Is there some mystical meaning for nine? I mean, we got the cat o'nine tails... Why nine, I ask you? And how 'bout the Beatles and "Number nine, number nine, number nine"! What was that all about?
And then, since I'm on the subject of how weird numbers are, why do people say, "I'm all sixes and sevens here"?
I don't get it.
Don't even know who I bloody am anymore,
OrB~ (I think...I think I got it right this time!)
And, come to think of it, bloody Clementine's shoes--those herring boxes--were number nine! What's this with nine anyway????
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Oh, mighty nightly warrior, what a great thought! (has anyone else been keeping track of Jupitor? now days, it can be seen nightly, in north, very close to Orion)
Yes, certain numbers have "magical" qualities.. 7-- it is thought that the seven planets known to the ancient started seven off as a lucky number, but i have never (and i don't remember reading anything here) explored why we use that set of characters (well, we did a bit on Octo (Hi, ya Love(land) Child Jazzo!) and i know octo (eight) goes back to latin and further to greek.. but now i am going to start exploring and see if any numbers have any magicical connotations in their roots.. (crossing threads.. an other theme? Words you can count on?
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since I'm on the subject of how weird numbers areLooks like you're behind the eight ball on this one, OrB~! 
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RE:why do people say, "I'm all sixes and sevens here"?
that's one you can look up-- as i recall, (and i am pretty sure i read it here) it has to do with guilded crafts.. and their processional order in a parade in London..
One guild was ranked first, and so on, till they got to number 6-- and there was a tie, so alternate years, one guildhall marches in the 6th position, and the following year, in the 7th position..and visa versa. if you want the detail of which guild hall, and what the criteria was for the ranking (details i have failed to remember, LIU!)
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another nine
Dressed to the nines.
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nine and three and seven all have mystical roots and have been much used by fantasists: Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.I'll look for a link which expands on this... http://www.bartleby.com/81/12099.html
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Looks like you're behind the eight ball on this one, OrB~!
And one is a lonely number and that makes nine.
OrB, Your Awad # is 20128, as this white eye counts the days. Yet even before I cast the stones we can see that the sum of 2-0-1-2-8 is 13. But ah...ahead I see much good fortune...I will report.
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one is a lonely number
The original is, of course, one ain't the onliest number, 'cause it's second to none.
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OrB, Your Awad # is 20128, as this white eye counts the days. Yet even before I cast the stones we can see that the sum of 2-0-1-2-8 is 13. But ah...ahead I see much good fortune.20128 twenty; one; 2; 8 twenty-one x 2; 8 42 8 -- aha! she is for-tu-ateMilum, in casting stones "it's all in the writs."
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Dear milum,
You just keeping adding till you can add no more, then you take a look at what you've got.
Soooooooooooo: 1 + 3 = 4
And that's a terrific number! 4. Why? Because you use four fingers on the fingerboard when playing violin. That's what 4 is for! Four sure!
But what about this nine business? I felt sure someone would straighten out the Beatles' mess!
Back into space to talk to Rigel,
OrB~ note the four characters in OrB~
I just noticed I signed on as Wordwind, but, at this point, big bloody deal. Orion's speaking here--obviously...
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Number 9, No. 9, #9, Number nine, number nine, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9 ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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[whisper] I think Cap is having a bit of a breakdown [whisper]
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[whispering too] Looks like his 19th nervous breakdown. Ayup.
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Ackshully©, it's 71, but who's counting?
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Oh, it's just his repetitive nature...either that, or he's on cloud 9!
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CLOUD NINE
Great one, Whit! Now why in Sam's Hill is it Cloud Nine? There's that bloody nine again!
Best regards,
WordWhine
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"...and seven little bottles of
Love Potion Number Niiiii~iiiiiiiiiiii~iiiiiiiiiine!"
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"seven"? I thought it was "sellin'".
"She's gotta pad down on 34th and Vine
Sellin' little bottles of
[um] Love Potion #9."
Now I've got to LIU!
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seven...bottles
Yeah, well...since tsuwm's looking up a history of numbers 9, 3, and 7 for us, I thought I'd work it in.
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My former idol, the former "Sonny Boy" Williamson had a fascination with the number "9". The number appeared in a large number of his songs and in the titles of two...
Ninty-nine
Well my Baby taken sick on July twenty-nine
The one I love she taken sick Boys, on July twenty-nine
Her doctor bill was four hundred dollars
and I didn't have but three hundred and ninty-nine.
Nine Below Zero
Ain't it a pity
People I declare it's a crying shame
She waited until it got nine below zero
Then she put me down for another man.
*****
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As tsuwm notes, nine and three and seven all have mystical roots and have been much used by fantasists
-seven-league boots
-The Seventh Seal
-7th son of the 7th son
-7 wonders of the ancient world
-time measured by a 7-day week (established by the babylonians, I believe, per their belief that 7 was a sacred number)
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-the 3 witches of Macbeth
-the 3 Furies in greek mythology
-the Holy Trinity
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7 Dwarfs / Dwarves (crossthreading...)
The 7 labours of Hercules.....
Something to do with the number of days of the week praps?
stales
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Wasn't there a movie called Seven brides for seven brothers?
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Seven Brides for Seven Brothers
Yep, bel...a Broadway musical and a movie.
more 3s
The Shamrock, the Triton, the Pyramids (their sides are geometeric triangles), The Three Musketeers, The Third Eye, Three Blind Mice, Babe Ruth wore number 3, The Tolkien Trilogy.
In numerology 3 is the number of creativity/but can lapse into indecision. How well I know...my birthpath number is 3.
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enthusiast
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The 7 labours of Hercules.....
I believe it was 12 labors. And that's another number with mythic/biblical overtones: the 12 tribes of Israel; the 12 apostles--and that, I've heard, is how come it's considered unlucky to have 13 at the supper table.
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Thanks slithy - when it comes to matters theological I am not a reliable source of information...
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And of course, the twelve days of Christmas. [signed] Emily
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- time measured by a 7-day week (established by the babylonians, I believe, per their belief that 7 was a sacred number)
I think God might have something to say about that...
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The Shamrock, the Triton, the Pyramids (their sides are geometeric triangles), The Three Musketeers, The Third Eye, Three Blind Mice, Babe Ruth wore number 3, The Tolkien Trilogy.
In numerology 3 is the number of creativity/but can lapse into indecision. How well I know...my birthpath number is 3.
This numbering system is inherent in nature. It was first laid down by Fibonacci 900 years ago. So it's far from a coincidence that is used so widely. People think in threes and fives. All nature derives from these numbers too. Leaves on a tree are divided into three and five segments (so it is impossible to have a four-leaf clover).
Doodle on the phone and you will draw a triangle or a pentacle. Think of a number between one and ten (or one and a hundred) and you will inevitably pick a fibonacci number. Give it a go. Your nature will overcome your conscious.
Writers and mathematicians, musicians and artists are inspired by the number three. In art you have the 'rule of thirds', musicians have lond preferred the three-time and writers love the number three. Include in your list of books The Third Man and The Thirty-nine steps. Most successful plots involve three central characters and are broken into three acts or scenes.
Mathematicians are mostly concerned by triangles and cubed numbers. Architects follow onto this by using triangulation to survey and to design.
It is no wonder that we are obsessed with the number three!!
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_All_ numbers are interesting, actually. If there were one that wasn't, that would be a characteristic to make it interesting...
Read "The Phantom Tollbooth" (book by Norton Juster, no lyrics; illustrations by Jules Feiffer) to your kids someday...delves gently into "innumeracy", the concept analagous to illiteracy.
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I think this is a great thread ,.............anyone who disagrees will get a bunch of fives
the Duncster
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Sorry to be so aggressive, its just that i'm 3 sheets to the wind
the Duncster
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from tsuwm's citation
A cat has nine lives....sure! Where were all the "cat people" on this one?
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from tsuwm's citation
Fairies. In order to see the fairies, a person is directed to put “nine grains of wheat on a
four-leaved clover.”
Celtic lore? Rubrick?
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Rubrick told us there was no such thing as a four-leaf clover [notchortle]. I'm sure I've seen one before!! Any botanists out there?
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I'm with you, ASp -- used to have a four-leafed clover pressed in the pages of my Webster's Collegiate (7th ed.) [under hoodoo]
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Any botanists out there?
there's never one when you want one, then four'll come along at once...
and yeah, I've pict em in Wales [notwink]
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Rubrick told us there was no such thing as a four-leaf clover
The old song tells us we can overlook that, AnnaS - was it look over it???
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from tsuwm's citation
Be sure to click through the sevens continuation links at the bottom right of the page. This is the first one:
E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.
Seven Bibles (The) or Sacred Books.
(1) The Bible of Christians. (Canon completed A.D. 494; Old Testament as we have it, B.C. 130.)
(2) The Eddas of the Scandinavians.
(3) The Five Kings of the Chinese. “King” here means web-of-cloth on which they were
originally written.
(4) The Koran of the Mohammedans. (Seventh century, A.D.)
(5) The Tri Pitikes of the Buddhists. (Sixth century B.C.)
(6) The Three Vedas of the Hindûs. (Twelfth century B.C.)
(7) Zendavesta of the Persians. (Twelfth century B.C.)
The Eddas of the Scandinavians really piques my interest since I'm unfamiliar with it. I'll be researching. In the meantime, if anyone has something on this, please share.
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Celtic lore? Rubrick?
Celtic Lore? Hell, no. I think we have more imagination than that!!!
Blame us for Shebeens, leprechauns, banshees and St. Patrick's snakes (not to mention shelalaghs, Fionn MacChumhaill, Fir bolg, Na Fianna, high kings, Lughnasa, Samhain and tors). We deal with legends and sagas - not trite luck symbols!
I think the flc is a derivation of the shamrock so there-in lies the connection with the Green Isle. If there is an affiliation with Ireland I sure haven't heard of it. Can anyone put me right on this??
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we can overlook that, AnnaS - was it look over it???
Speaking for the ASp: Yes
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The Eddas of the Scandinavians really piques my interest since I'm unfamiliar with it. I'll be researching. In the meantime, if any one has something on this, please share.
Lots of references to this book WON but the following seems to be the autoritative version. PM me if you want a longer list of available copies.
AUTHOR :Snorri Sturluson, 1179-1241
Faulkes, Anthony
TITLE :Edda
VOLUME :: Háttatal/ Snorri Sturluson; edited by Anthony Faulkes
IMPRINT :Oxford : Clarendon Press; , 1991
COLLATION :(200p) ; 22cm
ISBN :0198112386
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The Twelve Plays of Christmas
[signed] Edward
Come on, Em'--forgive me! Lemme back inside, dearest!
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My mother can find four-leaf clover all over the farm. She's got a gift for finding them.
I haven't read this whole thread yet, but maybe there's no such thing as a four-leaf shamrock...
Best regards,
WW
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Think of a number between one and ten (or one and a hundred) and you will inevitably pick a fibonacci number. Give it a go. Your nature will overcome your conscious.
I'm not so sure about that. My first inclination is always to pick 7, and that's not a Fibonacci number.
Most successful plots involve three central characters and are broken into three acts or scenes.
I'll agree with the acts and scenes, but characters? Surely there are more successful pairs. Romeo & Juliet for example.
Architects follow onto this by using triangulation to survey and to design.
Maybe somewhat, but we've mainly studied rectangles and circles as being in perfect proportion to the human form.
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"And that's a terrific number! 4. Why? Because you use four fingers on the fingerboard when playing violin. That's what 4 is for! Four sure!"
"Once you were two, dear birthday friend,
In spite of purple weather.*
But now you are three and near the end
As we gruesome together.
How forthful thou, forsooth for you!
For soon you will be more!
But 'fore one can be three be two,
Before be five be four."
--Churchy LaFemme, of Pogo fame
*Some folklorists opine that the original line here was "inside of turtle sweater," but no definitive proof has been obtained.
Tsyganka, ever the scholar
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The fibonacci sequence starts 0 1 and forms each later term as the sum of the two immediately-preceding ones; hence 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 ...
These numbers are often found in nature. For example, in many flowers the number of petals is a fibonacci number (or is such a number repeated twice, in two sets):
3 petals: lily, iris
5 petals: buttercup, wild rose, larkspur, columbine, vinca
8 petals: delphinium, coreopsis
13 petals: ragwort, marigold, cineraria
21 petals: aster, black-eyed susan, chicory
34 petals plantain, daisy, pyrethrum
55 or 89 petals: daisy, the asteraceae family
(The are exceptions. Often those exceptions are numbers in the Lucas series,, which is from with the same "sum of the previous two" rule but starting with 2 1: hence 2 1 3 4 7 11 18 29 47 76 ...)
So too: in a seedhead at the center of daisy or suflower, or the like, the sprials of the individual seeds are in patterns of fibonacci numbers. It was suspected, and then proved mathematically in 1993, that this produces optimum uniformity of spacing as the seeds and seedhead grow.
As one moves out in a fibonacci series (or in any related series using the same rule, such as the Lucas series), the ratio of the term to its preceding term converges to the golden ratio -- which is the subject of its own thread.
Another oddity: write the fibonacci numbers (0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 ...) thus as decimal fractions thus; then total the decimal numbers:
0 -- .0
1 -- .01
1 -- .001
2 -- .0002
3 -- .00003
5 -- .000005
8 -- .0000008
13--.00000013
21--.000000021
sum.011235951
The sum (carried out infinitely) equals 1/89th -- and 89 is itself a fibonacci number.
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RE: in many flowers the number of petals is a fibonacci number (or is such a number repeated twice, in two sets):
3 petals: lily, iris
Iris, lily(s) and tulips all have 3 petals/
half the "flower" is a modified, colored sepel A slightly different structure. -- sepal are most familier in roses (which have 5, the green covers to the rose bud)
some plants have modified sepals.. so, three of the lilies "petals' are really "covers' to the three petals of the flower.
same in tulips, and iris's, and lots of other flowers.
flowers generally have 1 to 1 ratio of sepals to petals.. but in modified forms, the ratio is lost. so old, simple roses (a tudor rose, say) has five petals but many modern roses have any number of petals, following a fibonacci series number. there are also "double forms of lilies", with 6 or 9 petals (total appearence, 9 or 12) but the number of sepals remains the same.
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the whole nine yardsOrB~! Look what I found! But since he's incorrect about "your name will be mud/your name is mud" hearkening back to Dr. Mudd (see Today's Word thread) on the same page, I dunno. Take a look at the rest of his stuff and see what you think. http://www.isye.gatech.edu/~jsokol/etym.html The Whole 9 Yards - The term "the whole 9 yards" came from WWII fighter pilots in the South Pacific. When arming their airplanes on the ground, the .50 caliber machine gun ammo belts measured exactly 27 feet, before being loaded into the fuselage. If the pilots fired all their ammo at a target, it got "the whole 9 yards." Thanks to Sarah Yohannan for this contribution.P.S. So who's Sarah Yohannan?
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old hand
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P.S. So who's Sarah Yohannan?
Probably one of the hundreds of people who have tried to make up an origin for the phrase that has no known origin.
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As long as you're not using four on the floor at the same time duncan, it's o.k.
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robably one of the hundreds of people who have tried to make up an origin for the phrase that has no known origin.
Yep, that's what I was thinkin', Jazzo...this guy claims to be a credible linguist and yet he uses sourceless mail-in material? Huh? But I've never run across anything on the whole nine yards before, so, myth or not, I figured it was worth putting up for a look.
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>Huh? But I've never run across anything on the whole nine yards before...
then you really owe it to yourself to look at the Quinion link -- he's got the whole nine yards.
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Sorry, according to the British High Court yesterday those of us residing in the UK can no longer even discuss anything that is measured in anything other than metric measures. This is because Brussels says so. Therefore anyone resident in the EC/EU/ECC who even mentions measures such as yar... [erp@#*^!#]
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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addict
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I'll agree with the acts and scenes, but characters? Surely there are more successful pairs. Romeo & Juliet for example.I was thinking more like Othello or King Lear. In fairness, I did say mostly! Architects follow onto this by using triangulation to survey and to design.
Maybe somewhat, but we've mainly studied rectangles and circles as being in perfect proportion to the human form.Yup. Leonardo's The proportions of man is a good example of this. (Incidentally, it is the design on the back of the Italian Euro coin). I did architecture in a fomer life and it is near impossible to draw a square without a 45 degree set square triangle). You can do it with a compass BUT you need to centre that circle first and that requires triangulation.
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I've got it!!! I just figured out the true meaning behind the whole nine yards! What a revelation! OK. Sit back and listen, for I will now reveal the truth to you:
It's really quite simple. One day there was a big home football game. Among the fans was an enthusiastic dingbat admiring all the players on the field, a dingbat clueless about football, but really a sincere admirer of how all those hulks covered in their shoulder plates of armour could move across the field like ballerinas. She was in awe!
Then, at one telling point in the game, seeing that her team was only nine yards from making a touchdown (actually it was ten yards, but she'd been very confused about the measurement between those lines), she shouted out something like, "Battuh, battuh, battuh, battuh...!" And when the winning touchdown was scored, she shouted, "He went the whole nine yards!" A reporter, taking notes beside her, asked, "May I quote you?" She batted her eyes at him, and said, "Why certainly! I'm their biggest fan, you know!" And, as in the case of, "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus," her words went down in sports history forever.
And that, my friends, is the explanation behind THE WHOLE NINE YARDS. You heard it first here on A.Word.A.Day's Wordplay and Fun!
From one of many shining points of illumination,
OrB~
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Thanks, tsuwm...Quinion, indeed, has the whole nine yards on the whole nine yards! Just like the full monty, numerous theories but nothing certifiable, no cigar. He does say the WWII ammo story may have "merit" because its the right time-frame. And with even more pertinence to this number thread, he had this to offer: Some writers argue that the number isn't a dimension of any kind: Jonathon
Green, in his Cassell Dictionary of Slang, suggests that it's most likely to
represent a use of nine as a mystic number, after the fashion of nine
tailors, the nine muses, and several other expressions; Jesse Sheidlower
thinks that it may be related in this way to the number in the equally odd
expression dressed to the nines. Here's the link: http://www.quinion.com/words/articles/nineyards.htm
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