|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
|
OP
addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679 |
I just got to see this message on my local rag website. Thought a lot of the ecologically-minded would like to share in the good news. http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2002/0204/breaking36.htm I like all of the points made but the second point stands out as a fine example. Now, if only the rest of the world would follow suit....sigh [emoticon of hopefulness but dire resignation that such a dream will be unfulfilled in my lifetime]  Now we really are a Green Isle!!! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
wtg, Emeralds! meanwhile, the dozy ~~~~~ running UK energy policies have just sneaked out a weasel-worded report that opens the door to another 12 nuclear dustbins being sited in Wales just across the water from your green and pleasant land... [sickasaparrot]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
the Irish lead the way again! would love to go back again. It's a great spot to visit for a woman alone ... no language problem and friendly folks everywhere!
Have one for me in celebration!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
meanwhile, the dozy ~~~~~ running UK energy policies have just sneaked out a weasel-worded report that opens the door to another 12 nuclear dustbins being sited in Wales just across the water from your green and pleasant land...
Well, maybe. But I've been hearing reports that the same report has basically slagged any chance of further usage of nuclear plants because of the requirement that the builders/owners would also have to pay for dismantling and disposal at the end of play. Please ignore those new holes in Wales which are the exact size of foundations for reactor cores ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
would also have to pay for dismantling and disposal at the end of playyeahbut® I bet there will be a similar sized hole in their accounts when we get there - "EnronNuclear Power". It took us *years to get the filth of Trawsfynnedd closed down... Get ready to start screaming good and loud, Ireland - you won't find the politicians such a push-over as the Welsh pack this weekend
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Mav, didn't Wales get some kind of autonomy and local govt (or was that Scotland only) lately? Will they be the bird that fouls its own nest, or can they blame it on Westminster?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
I applaud the announcement and am pleased to see that Ireland is following Western Australia on this - well perhaps I am overstating it a bit, but a bloody great windfarm WAS opened outside of Albany last year.
I am concerned however that "clean and green" has been seen as an antonym to nuclear power - especially seeing nuclear power wasn't mentioned in the announcement.
Having roused the sleeping AWAD dragon, I will press on....all I ask is that emotions do not replace scientific fact in the hullaballoo that is no doubt about to erupt around here.
Some things to think about:
(1) Fossil fuel power stations emit more radiation throughout their life than a comparable nuclear power station. Even worse, the emissions from fossil fuel fired power stations are subject to less control than those of nuclear power stations - they are indisciminantly released to the atmosphere. If it's a new, very green, plant then a lot of effort is put into trapping the fly ash - particles of which are the subject of my concern. Good. But what happens to the ash? Oh, it's used for house bricks, road base etc etc.
(2) The gamma ray radiation (from pottasium, thorium & uranium) and radioactive gases (radon) given off by the groundrock in many places of the world far exceed that released by the local nuclear power station. Again, these natural releases are indiscriminate. Typical examples are Edinburgh (all that lovely granite), Sydney (those black shales that decompose to make such fine market garden soils) and the hilly suburbs of Perth (granitoids again).
(3) The energy required to produce a solar cell is greater than the energy that it will output throughout its life.
In stales' opinion...
Wind power? Excellent.
Tidal power? Fantastic.
Hydrothermal power? Yep - good stuff (onya Kiwi's)
Hydroelectric schemes? Good - but pity about all the riverine ecosystems that get buggered up. (And in Australia's case, the salinisation of the lands that use now use the available water for irrigation).
Nuclear power? Hmmm - well, if you must - after all, it is the most efficient.
Fossil fuel for power stations? Bring on the 2 headed babies.
Post Edit: Should be fair and separate gas turbines from coal and dieasel fired power stations. They are very clean, but still produce vast quantities of ozone depleting gases such as carbon dioxide.
stales
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094 |
stales, what's the difference between hydrothermal and hydroelectric? I figured they were both produced by dams.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Hydrothermal relies on abstracting heat from the earth's mantle by means of tapping into aquifers - viz, the whole of Iceland! edit: see this for a good basic guide:http://www.eren.doe.gov/geothermal/whatisgeoenergy.html
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear stales: Windfarms sound great, but I saw an article that in many areas, even small bug smears reduce efficiency almost thirty percent. And new one in UK promptly was put out of action by blade fracture, I'll bet from hitting a bird. Elsewhere windfarms kill many birds. And I haven't seen any discussion of problems with blade icing in cold weather, which destroyed early MIT unit on Mt.Washington many years ago.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
I'll bet from hitting a birdMight it be well for them to they contact the frozen-chicken researchers? 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
|
|
OP
addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679 |
Windfarms sound great, but I saw an article that in many areas, even small bug smears reduce efficiency almost thirty percent. And new one in UK promptly was put out of action by blade fracture, I'll bet from hitting a bird. Elsewhere windfarms kill many birds. And I haven't seen any discussion of problems with blade icing in cold weather, which destroyed early MIT unit on Mt.Washington many years ago.
Bill, This may be the case but that is down to poor planning and placement. The windfarms in Ireland will be placed on a sandbank 60 miles east of the coast. This sandbank experiences no winds under 60mph (thus rendering it treacherous to bugs) and is too inhospitable to be any good to passing birds so they shouldn't suffer. As for the icing it is a natural problem with mechanical parts, is it not? Obviously some maintenance is necessary especially in such an exposed part of the world.
But despite all the cons they are clearly outweighed by the pros. 250,000 homes powered by wind within the next two years!! It speaks for itself.
Next stop, tidal power.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Rubrick: "This sandbank experiences no winds under 60mph " Have you by any chance overstated the wind velocity? (what part of the time are such velocities observed?)
As for tidal power, I have read about some French use of it, but not for a long time
Many years ago there was a proposal to construct tidal dam from Maine to Nova Scotia, but that must have been a pipedream. Imagine the headaches.Worse than Chinese Three Gorges project.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
sandbank windfarm
I wonder how they will compensate for the 'sandpaper' effect. Sand at 60mph is very abrasive.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
Good point, bel. And come to think of it, if a constant 60-mph wind has been blowing the sand away for some time, how come there's any sand left to make a sandbank?
Something is not adding up about this story. Source, please? My googling skills do not seem to be up to finding the source.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
I'm not sure where you are coming from with this, bel. Windfarms are alive and well and generating cheapish electricity from renewable resources all over. There's a wind turbine on a hill above Wellington which has been turning day-in, day-out for over fifteen years. I've been up there a number of times and I can't honestly say I was kicking the bird carcases out of the way or tempted to use windshield cleaner to wipe the bugs off the blades. The Irish placed their windfarm well east of Ireland not so that it wouldn't be an eyesore, but because the force of hot air emanating from Whitehall was more effective ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
The sandbank in question may be actually a shoal entirely covered by water. I really doubt that at sea level there are constant winds of sixty mph. Also, current windfarm turbines could not tolerate that velocity, they are not designed for it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
Cap, I was just wondering how they shelter the windfarms from all the blowing sand since sand in gears and such can cause serious damage rather quickly. It is kinda interesting actually.
We do not have any windfarms that I know of. We have a glut of water and our power company's name says it all...Hydro Québec
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
Hydrothermal - water / temperature (hot springs etc) - more correctly geothermal? Probably. No dams. We don't have 'em. Or nuclear for that matter - only plenty of poisonous coal and diesel fired thingies, as well as hydroelectric. Hydroelectric - water only - from a great height. Dams and or waterfalls required. The wind farm at Albany has 12 seriously large turbines (1,800kW) imported from Germany to provide 75% of the power for a city of 30,000, the port and industry. The workings are housed at the top of 65m (200') high towers - each blade is 35m (110') long. Bugs, birds and low flying aircraft wouldn't have a chance. Albany is a beautiful place....full background on the windfarm and v. pretty pics at: http://www.westernpower.com.au/our_environment/renewable_energy/wind/photo_gallery.htmlstales
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
I heartily applaud Ireland's efforts towards "green energy." I remember when "solar energy' was on the fast track in the late '70's to the point it was being said that it would be available and affordable to a large percentage of the population by the mid-80's or so. And, then, it suddenly disappeared from the marquee. I always wondered about this until someone mentioned in a discussion circa 1990 that what happened was Exxon bought out 51% of the worldwide solar interests...so, no solar till we get all the oil. I've never been ever to validate this bit of info. But it wouldn't surprise me since it wouldn't be anything new in the corporate world. However, when Mercedes-Benz bought Chrysler it came out, factually, that the owner of no less than 43% of Chrysler stock was none other than... the Kuwaiti government! So much for energy-efficient automobiles. The whole oil racket is such a tangled web of power and ownership. Anyway, the main problem with nuclear energy is not just the low grade radiation seepage. The two largest problems are the threat of a major accident (and, now, add attack to the equation) at many of these increasingly antiquated and ill-supervised plants; and, then, of course the spent full storage, now mostly in onsite containment that's even more vulnerable to sabotogue or accident than the plants themselves. Yucca Mountain isn't the easy solution here, folks. The answer?...I really don't think anyone has one yet. The old story of a rush to a new technology without plans for its safety or waste ramifications. But I've been through this over and over, it seems, first with the No-Nukes in the 70's (Three Mile Island woke me up...I was at the No-Nukes Concert in lower Manhattan, '79, with 500,000 people, biggest outdoor jam since Woodstock), and, now, with the Unplug Salem Campaign here in South Jersey since '95. The three Salem (2) and Hope Creek (1) reactors on the Jersey side of the Delaware Bay just below Wilmington, DE, are the oldest and most problem-prone reactors, and with the worst safety record, of any in the country. They've been shut-down for infractions by the NRC numerous times, and yet they keep restarting them. AND they are the only reactors allowed to circumvent the Clean Water Act and operate without cooling towers, thus using Delaware Bay water which they suck in through intake pipes that kill an estimated 3 billion fish per year. The trade-off for this was a Wetlands Mitigation plan that has turned into a fiasco of nil value, and also caused the spraying of thousands of acres of wetlands with Roundup to kill phragmites, an arguably detrimental plant intruder, and the defoliant has completely devastated all the vegetation in these areas leaving acres of seared brown holes in the marsh oozing with thousands of gallons of herbicide. And, speaking of "Jersey barriers," if there is a major accident at either Salem/Hope Creek or Oyster Creek just above Atlantic City, on any kind of west wind (or any wind in Oyster Creeks' case), there is no vehicular escape route out of the South Jersey peninsula, and especially Cape May County, that doesn't head directly into the radiation plume (we're within the 50 mile catastrophic area and there is no bridge across the Delaware River or Bay below the Delaware Memorial Bridge near Wilmington). The only way out is by plane or boat...so, if you don't have a plane or boat... Anyway, I present this mostly factual rumination (except for that Exxon/Solar energy deal...if anybody can either verify or discredit that I'd appreciate it) for perusal; and you can decide for yourselves. I will say that if they ever offer a provably SAFE and ENVIRONMENTALLY SOUND way of producing nuclear power, I probably wouldn't have a problem with that. There's now over 1,300 hits to the Unplug Salem on Google it's grown so rapidly, but here's site links that sum up the gist of it, for those who might be interested. It's really more about common sense at this point, there's even pro-Nuclear people who would like to see these old and dangerous plants shut down. You wouldn't drive your family around in a car so old it might kill them, so why would you run old and decrepit nuclear plants? http://www.cleanoceanaction.org/PressReleases/PR2000/PSEGawardProtest.htmhttp://unplugsalem.org/airplane.htmhttp://unplugsalem.org (they're revamping the site, so alot of the links aren't loading yet, scroll down to the red "Unplug Salem...McGreevey...KI..." link for a good overview)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
Good, objective comments WO'N - thanks.
BTW....You wouldn't drive your family around in a car so old it might kill them....
Unfortunately I do - a 1964 job with limited power, drum brakes without power assist, poor cornering, vague steering, steel dash replete with glovebox lid that can behead passngers, no window washers...... Worst of all - no seat belts. Although compulsory in Oz, if they weren't fitted in pre-legislation days they don't have to be present. Putting this all to one side, she's rated as the coolest car on the block and EVERYBODY just wants to go for a spin....When I find a set of original belts I'll put them in.
stales
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
|
|
OP
addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679 |
Dear Rubrick: "This sandbank experiences no winds under 60mph " Have you by any chance overstated the
wind velocity? (what part of the time are such velocities observed?)
Whoops! Sorry about that. If you look at my previous post you'll see that I said it was 60 miles off the coast. I obviously repeated myself in haste. Can't remember what I was trying to say about the speed of the wind but it is mighty out there!
As for tidal power, I have read about some French use of it, but not for a long time
Many years ago there was a proposal to construct tidal dam from Maine to Nova Scotia, but that must have
been a pipedream. Imagine the headaches.Worse than Chinese Three Gorges project.
Actually, tidal power has been tested in Ireland and it works. The biggest problem has been development. Since there was a monopoly on the production of electricity here for the better part of 80 years the ESB has been loathe to embrace it as a viable alternative source of energy. The recent deregulation of monopolies by the European Union means that private companies have been able to develop this area and the tidal and wave power plants are fast becoming a reality. Ireland, as an island nation, would be the perfect place to adopt this.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
belM said: We do not have any windfarms that I know of.I think I saw something on CBC one night (Venture, maybe?) that talked about new windfarms going up on the Gaspé peninsula. I found a story about windpower in general, which mentions that project, on the CBC website: http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/environ/windpower/index.htmlOn the other hand, most of Canada does get its electricity from hydroelectric power. Most provincial electric companies are called "Hydro ______" or "______ Hydro". For example, there's Hydro Québec, as belM, pointed out, Manitoba Hydro, Newfoundland Hydro, Ontario Hydro... In Ontario there are some nuclear plants (which I assume are the Candu reactors, which are safer in many ways than the type which was used at Three Mile Island, see http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~cz725/ for much more information). Since my university education has been in physics and radiation physics (although now I'm in physical oceanography), I've had an opportunity to learn about nuclear power from people who know what they're talking about, rather than the scaremongers who don't know a thing about radiation physics. And I'd say that, thinking in a risk-management kind of way, the small risk of a nuclear accident is probably preferable to the guaranteed illnesses and deaths caused by burning coal. The unsafe plants probably need to be shut down and redesigned, undoubtedly, but nuclear energy isn't necessarily worse for people or the environment than burning coal. The fundamental problem with all this is that unless the demand for power stops increasing, people will just have to live with the consequences of their thirst for electricity, be it hydro-, wind-, or nuclear- generated. You can't have your cake and eat it too!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771 |
I figured the subject would turn to this, left to stew long enough, so I've been waiting to put my two cents in... I've got a car on order that's a step in the right direction. I'm getting a Toyota Prius, which is the hybrid gas/electric sedan first released in 2001. It's not the kind of electric car that you have to plug in, the batteries regenerate upon braking (absorbing the energy through the brakes, effectively). It idles on battery and accelerates on gas, giving it something like 53 miles per gallon - only exceeded by the Honda Insight, which runs on the same technology, but being a smaller 2-door with an aluminum frame accounts for the obscene 65 mpg or whatever it gets. For more info (and pictures!): http://prius.toyota.com/technology/hybrid.html http://www.hondacars.com/models/insight/engineering.htmlHonda and Ford (!) are in development for fuel cell cars, but the infrastructure is guaranteed to take a while to catch up... they don't just have fuel cell stations on every street corner here in Minneapolis... But for more info on fuel cells, here's a good resource: http://www.ballard.com/products.aspAnd as for windfarms, I think they're lovely. The sound of the wind turning the blades is very soothing... and I like the look of the farms themselves ~ in the same way that I like military cemeteries. Orderly lines of identical objects, viewed from a distance - I think that's why Christo's umbrella project was so resonant to a lot of people. Connecting the dots, finding the pattern. Wow... that was stream-of-consciousness! From windfarms to Christo, one line, no waiting!  http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9173/umbrellas.html
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
Thanks Bean - I was starting to feel a bit alone here! But could I also thank all the rest of you for the restraint you have shown in this thread. There's few subjects more emotive than the nuclear debate.
stales
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
FB - good for you with the Prius. I am a devout Toyota person and think we should consider a Prius for my wife's next car. They are quite expensive here though. She only does around 2,000 miles a year, mostly within a 3 mile radius of home. Interested to hear your report on your Prius experience - please mark it in your diary for about six months time.
stales
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
We need all the power we can get. The biggest problem though, worldwide, is nuclear waste disposal.
What a pity fusion power seems a dream unlikely to materialize.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
What a pity fusion power seems a dream unlikely to materialize.
Oh, I wouldn't write it off completely so soon. Admittedly the early promise hasn't eventuated, but I've seen a few papers floating about which suggest that there are alternatives to the tokomak approach which might receive research funding in the nearish future. We know it works, we get proof renewed every day at dawn!
But another power source which no one has really commented on is beamed power from space, using large arrays of solar collectors in geosynchonous orbit. The technology, I understand, is readily available and the costs are actually calculable, but there has just been no commercial uptake as yet - too big a commercial risk, I suppose. There's still oil and coal to burn, uranium to enrich and rivers to destroy.
Time, I suppose, will tell.
Which brings me to the axiom which I didn't post on Mav's thread:
Wot, me worry? - Alfred E. Newman
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
I think the Prius sounds like a good idea also but the price tag is quite high for the size of car. The suggested mfg retail price is $20,450 U.S. In Canadian funds that winds up being nearly $32,000. (yes our dollar is taking quite a beating these days  )
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094 |
Another reservoir of energy is in the very extensive deposits of methane hydrate in coastal sediments
Just outside of Columbus, Ohio there's a former garbage dump that's been sealed up and the methane emissions have been harnessed to produce energy for a substantial area. They aren't able to plant any trees or large plants because it would puncture the seal. It's a golf course now.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
solar, fusion, etc.I still think solar energy is the ultimate solution. Both the coal-burning (acid rain, greenhouse emissons) and nuclear technolgies (waste and spent fuel is rapidly accumulating and stays "hot" for up to 30,000 years, so nobody wants it near them) have too many short-term and long-term problems to be continued indefinitely in their present state. That's not discounting the development of new technologies to counteract or eliminate the harmful effects produced by these operations. Solar is cheap, plentiful, reliable, and seemingly endless (well, until the sun novas, anyway ). They already had solar cell cars 15 years ago...what happened? Cold fusion could still be a hope...and hopefully the solution if doable. But Clinton killed the SuperCollider Project with one of his last budgets. I'm hoping there's still some clandestine research still underway on this, perhaps in technologically advanced countries like Russia, Japan, Germany, Britain, or even China. But if not, fusion may now be hundreds of years off.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
There was a documentary about the Queens Univerisity Solar Team made some time last year about a solar car race. Here is their web page: http://solarcar.queensu.ca/mn_current_car.htmSolar power is not yet strong enough to fully power a full sized car. The car is so skinny that the driver has to lie down do drive. There is only place for one passenger. One of the biggest hitches...the sun's rays may be free but harnessing them is quite expensive. I can't remember the exact figure (Bean, help if you saw the documentary...it was Canadian so I'm sure our U.S. pals won't have seen it) but I seem to recall it was somewhere in the quarter-million-dollar range. No chump change let me tell you.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
I post this without comment, please draw your own conclusions: Regulators: Ohio Nuclear Plant Missed Signs of Corrosion http://www.msnbc.com/news/729694.asp#BODY
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
That is truely frightening, Juan.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,350
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
845
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
