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Knowing of the interest here in nautical terms, may I commend today’s M-W Word of the Day, for anyone who hasn’t yet seen it? Although I suspect most of us knew parts of the story, I certainly didn’t know the full thread of grog’s etymological weave... […]Based on surface resemblance, you might guess that "logy" (also sometimes spelled "loggy") is related to "groggy," but that's not the case. "Groggy" comes from "Old Grog," the nickname of an English admiral who was notorious for his cloak made of a fabric called grogram, and for adding water to his crew's rum. The sailors called the rum mixture "grog" after the admiral. Because of the effect of grog, "groggy" came to mean "weak and unsteady on the feet or in action..."
http://www.Merriam-Webster.com
So we have this wonderful process of language change by transfer over time: 1. gros grain from the old French, meaning ‘coarse grain’ 2. Grogram, (n) a coarse cloth of silk and mohair 3. ‘Old Grog’ (proper noun), passing by popular association to become the nickname for Admiral Vernon (1684–1757) who wore such a cloak 4. Grog (n) a mixture of rum and water - thus passing on again by association to one of his creations (1740) 5. groggy (adj), movement affected by grog 6. groggy (adj), by analogy: punch-drunk or drowsy 7. groggily (adv), and grogginess (n) descriptions of this condition [/weaving] ~ or maybe not..! 
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Sideburns-- has a shorter but similar history..
in the mid 1800 large side whiskers were popular.. a US General Sideburns sported a large bushy set of such whiskers, and they became know as sideburns..
whiskers of that style are no longer stylish, but hair forward of, and lower then the top of the ear continue to be called sideburns.. no matter how long or short.
most women don't have much hair forward of their ears--
before puberty, its easy to tell what hair and what is facial hair..but how do you tell once a man beard comes in? is the texture of the hair different..It seems to be.. but is it gradual or dramatic?
but where does its start to change? and the color can be different.. the change in color is gradual, i know.
(my son has med, ash hair, but his beard is lighter, closer to blond.. except, around his mouth, where it is definately red!)
hirsute men responces are welcome.
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hirsute men responces are welcome.Jeez, Helen, what is this, a dating agency?   The facial hair starts elongating into sideburns around puberty, and grows more wiry as the hormones kick in - prior to that, there is that charming little descriptive phrase current in the UK at least, referring to this soft growth of hair as bumfluff
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old hand
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hirsute men responces are welcome.Or their wives, I hope! My husband has got "dirty blond" hair and his beard is red, with blond parts near his lips. Since his current hairstyle is "apply electric clippers until hair is an even length", and he was wearing sideburns till recently (I just love them!) and I'm the one who gets to do the clipper-ing, I can tell you that the sideburn hair starts just in front of his ears - kind of where a woman's hair ends. It's definitely thicker and coarser than his head hair, which is quite fine and soft. In his case, it's also a completely different colour. Also, I am not "allowed" to do his sideburns - apparently there's more art to it than I am capable of (fine by me!). I just trim his head. My job ends where his sideburns start.
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hirsute men responces are welcome.In that case, I defer to Faldage PS Nice post, mav!! Live and learn....
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Oh, my ASp. I was going to let you have this one.
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re:this soft growth of hair as bumfluff and the Xrefer thread--
in US its peach fuzz at least most commonly- but i have heard young boys described as "having no more beard than a newborn's bottom"
lots of baby's get born hairy-- i don't know why or what percentage.. but its not uncommon to see new borns covered with down hair. by the time they are a month old or so, it goes away..
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no Caesar am I
Non Caesar sum, said Max.
In case anyone missed it
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yes, i really was married, and i did live with a man for 20 years.. but he hated face hair-- he never had a 5 o'clock shadow.. if he had to shave twice in a day, so be it..
so what is an impirial?
Gimme a year, and I might be able to do you an imperial, maybe.
(my son fell a bit far from the tree-- his alter ego name on the net is eli the bearded.)
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a US General SideburnsJust a polite correction, Helen, for the sake of history, and etymology...Gen. Ambrose Burnside, Union Major General who superseded Gen. McClellan in command of the Army of the Potomac in November of 1862. Gen. Burnside is widely regarded as one of the most inept leaders in military history. (YCLIU) See the Battle of Fredericksburg where he kept sending assaults of the famed Irish Brigade, among others, to certain slaughter at Marye's Heights for one example; or his sending his forces over a small stone bridge into enfilading fire at Antietam for another. Here's a good photo of Burnside (sans his trademark hat) for noting the unique style of whiskers he sported that gave rise to the word "sideburns" as Helen pointed out: http://www.civil-war.net/images/links/ambroseburnside.jpg
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lots of baby's get born hairy-- i don't know why or what percentage.. but its not uncommon to see new borns covered with down hair. by the time they are a month old or so, it goes away..
ahhhhhhh....babies!
My daughter was born completely covered with a fine blonde down, except for the 2 inch long auburn hair on her head. In the womb, the fine down protects the unborn and usually falls off inside the womb before birth and you never see it. She was a repeat c-section and was delivered before my due date so that I would not go into labor. Therefore, the down did not have time to fall off and she was born with it. Might I also add, the only hair that ever fell off her after birth was the beautiful auburn, and it came back in blonde. And anyone who has seen the pictures of her and her newborn and sees the auburn...it comes out of a bottle! She is still blonde under it all
Her own child that was just born last week, was delivered 9 days after her due date and barely has any hair at all, head or otherwise.
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Non Caesar sum, said Max. Thanks for the smile, F.This took me all evening to figure out. Love it!
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no Caesar am IOh, what a relief-- I have a morbid fear of caesars.
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Someone needs to look this one up. I heard it as a twisting of the name of the hairy General Burnside (the linguistic transformation being similar to the renaming of 'flutter-by" into butterfly).
Which Twin has the Urban Legend? I know there's a Burnside Avenue in the Bronx...
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Oh Whitman is right.. which makes it more interesting..
Burnside, a man with large side whiskers, gives us the word sideburns, which now simple mean the hair in front of the ears, not just large whiskers..
and yes.. burnside ave is named for the same general.. and Major Deegan, was a small offical in the NY State reserve.. who never served in active duty.. but got a street named after himself.
many ny streets are history lessons Jerome Ave is for Jennie Jerome Churchill's father..
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Goodness Helen, you are in rare form tonight. First you solicit hirsute men responces -- were you by any chance referring to ponces?
Then you inform us Churchill's father was named Jennie.
Where is the gutter police?
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I've also heard the style of "sideburns" that the General wears referred to as muttonchops...but I don't know the time or etymology...oh well, ICLIU...I can look it up! Where is the Gutter Police?Jackie...are you back in uniform, yet?
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Jackie...are you back in uniform, yet? Hey, innuendo is my game-- In-gutter or out, it's all the same!
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no inuendo about muttonchops the whiskers on the side of the face looked had the same shape as what in this county is called a baby loin lambchop..
Who was it/ where was it(which thread) the history of frozen NZ lamb to England? what year was it?
certainly, in the 1860's mutton was all the rage.. women's dresses came with leg 'o mutton sleeves, men had mutton chop whiskers.. society ladies wore coats with mutton trim.
(not the creamy white shearling coat that were popular here 15 years ago, but, a fur like mutton skin, with curly, (rather than the normal kinky) nap, in black. but to make it la de da, it was mouton
(mutton, i think rhymes with button, mouton, with crouton)
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The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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The word I was looking for was lanugo.
NOUN: A covering of fine, soft hair, as on a leaf, an insect, or a newborn child. Sorry this was delayed. I just couldn't find the word I was looking for. Better late, than never!
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Oh what a good word! i don't think i have ever seen or hear it before... you are an angel
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Where is the gutter police?
OK, maybe this is cross threading, but, shouldn't this read: "Where are the gutter police?" [confused-e]
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OK, maybe this is cross threading, but, shouldn't this read: "Where are the gutter police?" [confused-e]I think so, Angel...according to "scriptural grammar" just kidding, Faldage! But since we know "the Gutter Police" is/are usually just one person hi, Jackie!, then perhaps is is preferable to are, or sumptin' like that.  [doubly-confused-e]
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You're right, Helen, about the mutton. Although hardly anyone eats it any more, it was de rigueur for Sunday dinner in England in Victorian times, and was usually referred to as "the joint". John Galsworthy, in The Forsyte Saga has a passage about how the various senior Forsytes all had differing views about what was the best mutton. One of them even earned the contempt of all the others for having the temerity to express a preference for New Zealand mutton!
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I have also heard them called sideboards. Whether this is a folk etymology from those who have never heard of the General or whether this name came first and led to the twisting of the General's name, I don't know.
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Good heavens, I thought a sideboard was just a table where you set the food that was being served at a big dinner (as opposed to the table where you sit).
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BobY writes : Then you inform us Churchill's father was named Jennie.
Where is the gutter police?
No need, sweetie ... what of troy wrote is :
Jerome Ave is for Jennie Jerome Churchill's father..
It threw me, too, for a moment until I reread it. To put it another way (with your persmission, Helen) Jerome Ave is named for the father of Jennie Jerome. OK?
Jennie Jerome of USA was the mother of Winston Churchill.
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yeah-- i figured everyone would get..and since it was open to interpretation.. (and an interesting mis-interpretation, at that) i didn't edit..
i could have also written Jerome Ave was named for Jennie Churchill's (nee Jerome)father.. on the theory that Jennie Jerome Churchill might be better known than her father.. even if she is less well known than her son..
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Jennie Jerome Churchill's father
Jennie Jerome, Churchill's father
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Possible YART, but I am too lazy to LIU.
Woman, without her man, is a savage.
Woman! without her, man is a savage.
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Interestingly enough, lanugo is the same word/same meaning in Spanish. Lanudo is related and means "wooly". They both come from the latin "lana" meaning wool. Lana in Spanish means wool too, but in slang also means money, especially accompanied by one of these hand gestures: for a small amount of lana, rub the fingertips of the thumb and first two fingers back and forth lightly several times; for larger amounts, hold your thumb and index finger extended in a bracket with the other three fingers folded into the palm. Snap the whole hand forward, stiffly, once only and maintain for a count of three.Now you're doin' that crazy hand jive, hijo
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And then there's "Mutton dressed up as lamb" . Hev
"friend you haven't met yet..."
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which shows up in English as lanoline.. the lovely soft grease pressed from lambs wool, and used as lubricant!
i don't know if it is used industrially, but it sure is used {crossing threads!) universally in cosmetics..
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One of them even earned the contempt of all the others for having the temerity to express a preference for New Zealand mutton!
Yes, Galsworthy must have been paid by the British Sheepmeat Producers Association or whatever it's called. NZ has NEVER exported mutton to Britain as far as I'm aware. Lamb, yes. Hogget, yes. Mutton, never. What never? Well ... hardly ever!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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CapK, what, pray, is the difference, if any, between hogget and pork?
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The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Max, I went to the MW on line and looked for 'hogget'; it gave 'swine'. So if this is correct, then you are saying pork comes from sheep. Wot gives 'ere? Is MW wrong? (That wouldn't surprise me)
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There is definitely a connection twixt the two, but there's an interesting historical tidbit that could probably stand some investigation, particularly the language aspects.
I grew up in the then-small town of Burke, (Fairfax County) Virginia, hard by the main line of the Southern RR. Not 3 miles south, there was a crossing called Sideburn Crossing, where stood a very old hotel. And there exists a picture of President Lincoln taken in front of that very hotel, with the sign Sideburn Hotel in the background, I believe. Anyway, that crossing was known as Sideburn in the 1860s, and I have always wondered if there were a connection between that location and General Burnsides. Hardly seems likely, but certainly an odd coincidence.
In 1962 or so, our local fire department burned that hotel as a drill! In retrospect an historical tragedy. Somewhere I have pictures of myself as a very young volunteer standing beside the hotel just before we set it on fire. Clearly visible behind me are the drinking fountains labeled "White" and "Colored." Not visible, but definitely there, were the construction beams, mostly oak, but some chestnut, twelve inches square and 40 feet or so long that formed the skeleton on the building. I cry when I think of the many uses for that wood other than to teach us how to wet down the ruins, which is pretty much all our fire department was good for at the time. Not to mention the lost historical value.
TEd
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