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#48365 - 11/21/01 08:05 PM  
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#48366 - 11/21/01 09:41 PM Re: Hateful humour  
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Rio Grande, Cape May County, N...
I see your point, Max. That Aussie joke is pretty tough! I guess the question is, "where does mean-spiritedness take over and cross the line?" But, in the same vein, I know there are some state rivalries here that spawn a particularly cutting humor...Texas/Oklahoma for one, and Mississippi/Arkansas (though, actually a few states in the Southeast like to dump on ole Miss--any of our Southern folk have more specifics on these, or even some jokes maybe? and, of course, New jersey/New york, though New Jersey usually gets the worst of it with the power of the NY media to falsely perpetuate NJ's image as one big toxic, factory-ridden, swampy garbage dump (GET OFF THE TURNPIKE!! ); and I'm sure there are others I missed, I'm thinkin' something up Minnesota way...how 'bout it tsuwm? You and the Dakotas, or is it North and South Dakota?


#48367 - 11/21/01 09:46 PM Re: Hateful humour  
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Rio Grande, Cape May County, N...
How do you know when your staying in a Kentucky hotel?
When you call the front desk and say, "I've gotta leak in my sink, and the person at the front desk says, "Go ahead."


That so, Jackie?
Or, how 'bout it CapK, you've been out that way? Encounter any fawcet-adorned urinals?


#48368 - 11/21/01 10:22 PM Re: Hateful humour  
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actually Max, i heard your joke years ago--only the butt of the joke was a Pole.. polish jokes were very savage..
a man walks into a bar, orders a drink, and announces excitedly, "i just heard the funniest joke and i want to share it.. So there was this Pole, " and right then the bartender says-"stop, i want you to know, i am polish, and that good looking barmaid, she's polish, and look around at all these guys, iron workers, all of them, and all of them polish.. and i want you to think about this before you tell your joke."

so the man looks about at all the patrons, big burly men, and at the barkeep, and the bar maid, and he continues. "Okay, i'll tell it real slow..."


and whitman is right.. NJ is the butt of most NY jokes.. they only place NJ fares well is when compared to lawyers.. Why does NJ have more toxic waste site than anywhere else in US and California have more lawyers?-- NJ had first pick..

if you want to generally insult someone--(especially someone driving,) just call them Jersey driver!.

and the JAP jokes-- (jewish american priness's) jokes can get pretty savage, too. lately these have been replaced with Blonde jokes.. Wow sent me a set today...

typical JAP joke
how does a JAP call the family to dinner?
A.--Everyone in the car!

what is the only thing a JAP knows how to make for dinner?
A- A reservation

What is a JAP's favorite wine? whine
A--I want to go to Boca for the winter..

What is a JAP's idea of natural childbirth?
A--Absolutley No makeup!

How can you tell when a JAP has an orgasim?
A--She drops her nail file..

Ethnic humor of alll stripes is rife in NY-- and the butt of the humor changes every couple of years as new groups move in.. (But NJ, bless it, alway is around to make fun of! )

and not to leave the irish out..
what is an irish seven course dinner?
A- a potato and six pack

what is the difference between an irish wedding and an irish wake?
A-One less drunk at the wake.

who ever your academic was, he might be right.. but i suspect all you ozzie joke had Poles there first..




#48369 - 11/21/01 11:05 PM Re: Hateful humour  
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Max:

This may be YART, but it seems to me I waxed prolix here on my theory of humor some months ago.

In a nutshell: EVERY joke at which you laugh or want to laugh is at the expense of something or someone. Usually a someone. Not most jokes. EVERY joke. Blonde jokes, black jokes, Jewish jokes, whatever, they all put someone down. If a joke doesn't put someone down it's not funny. It's a simple matter of holier than thou.

Puns, though, are not jokes. Some people will say there's nothing funny about a pun; in a way they are correct. What there is about puns is an innate cleverness.

I tell jokes all the time, but I understand that they can be hurtful, so I am almost always extremely cognizant of the listener. For example, I will never ever make a joke about an individual's name. That's a direct attack on the person. The teller may think it's funny, but not the butt of the joke.

I am much less "careful" about telling a pun or shaggy dog story, only ascertaining beforehand that the person I'm telling it to is going to get it.

One of the funniest stories I ever heard was about Jesus' interactions with a guy who was making him a new robe. Jesus and the guy went into business as Lord and Taylor. I made the mistake of telling it to my brother-in-law, who is well-educated (but not very bright if you get my drift. He did not know there was a department store chain called Lord and Taylor. Dan's not on my a-list as a recipient of puns, I can assure you.

Ted




TEd
#48370 - 11/21/01 11:36 PM Re: Hateful humour  
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Dear TEd: "In a nutshell: EVERY joke at which you laugh or want to laugh is at the expense of
something or someone"

That is a considerable exaggeration, TEd. It is true that the hateful ones get the loudest laughs.
Particularly from the slobs if they can conclude it is not aimed at them. So professional comics always play to the slobs, there are so many of them.


#48371 - 11/21/01 11:58 PM Re: Hateful humour  
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Bill:

No, it is not an exaggeration. In fact, to show you how serious I am about this statement I will pay you $50 for a joke that is not a pun and also not a putdown of another person, place, or thing on some level.

Of course I get to parse your submission and explain why I believe it is a putdown.

TEd



TEd
#48372 - 11/22/01 12:45 AM Re: Hateful humour  
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Dear TEd; one of the loudest laughs I ever heard was on a radio show in early thirties, with Fred Allen and Jack Benny. Fred Allen wrote most all of his own lines, and was very good at ad-libs. He was getting the better of Jack Benny for most of the show, until finally Jack Benny said: "You wouldn't talk to me like that if my writers were here!" It really brought down the house, and continued long enough to bother the people running the program, so that they turned off the microphones in the crowd, and the announcer interrupted with some sort of message.


#48373 - 11/22/01 04:28 AM Re: Hateful humour  
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Jersey driver!

Growing up in Plainfield, NJ, 30 miles from New York City, the perspective was somehwat different as one of the worst things you could call an idiot on the road was New York driver! Much more fitting in my view since the art of driving in New York City requires a totalness of aggression and abandon not seen on other roadways (boy, am I being polite!) I learned something about this when I once asked a New york cabbie about this phenomenon and he said, "Well, I'll tell ya...you see that opening 2 blocks and three lanes over on the left." "Yeah," I said. And with a sadistic grin he blurted, "I'm gonna be there in about 2 seconds!" "You what!" I shouted. And he did it!
I love to drive, but New York City is the ONLY place I'm scared to death to be on the road.
The other two choice disparagements for wayward drivers were Sunday driver! and, of course, the all-time favorite, Woman driver! Now PC defunct,of course!



#48374 - 11/22/01 04:29 AM Re: Hateful humour  
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Jersey driver!

Growing up in Plainfield, NJ, 30 miles from New York City, the perspective was somehwat different as one of the worst things you could call an idiot on the road was New York driver! Much more fitting in my view since the art of driving in New York City requires a totalness of aggression and abandon not seen on other roadways (boy, am I being polite!) I learned something about this when I once asked a New york cabbie about this phenomenon and he said, "Well, I'll tell ya...you see that opening 2 blocks up and three lanes over on the left." "Yeah," I said. And with a sadistic grin he blurted, "I'm gonna be there in about 2 seconds!" "You what!" I shouted. And he did it!
I love to drive, but New York City is the ONLY place I'm scared to death to be on the road.
The other two choice disparagements for wayward drivers were Sunday driver! and, of course, the all-time favorite, Woman driver! Now PC defunct,of course!



#48375 - 11/22/01 08:13 AM Re: Development of humour  
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The humour that has been described seems to have moved on from the old fashioned Irish immigrant or Polish immigrant joke to more of a joke between equals, where the group who are the butt of that type of joke are more resiliant. The New Zealand/Australia joke actually makes a joke of the rivalry/jealousy/hatred(I don't think so?) that exists between the two countries, rather than saying "all people from ... are stupid which is what the older, less sophisticated jokes said (and still do). A JAP can't really help the way she is (and I adored the very self-aware ones I met in NY), at least some of the people mentioned in blonde jokes have a choice over their hair colour (my friend wears a t-shirt that says "speak slowly, natural blonde").

The main form of humour amongst those who used to be called alternative comics is observational humour - telling a story about something that happened to you (where the joke is largely against yourself), a strange experience, a sudden realisation or trying to make sense of politics or big business (anyone who actively seeks media attention to promote their business or political cause is considered fair game, discussion of behaviour is fair game, discussion of physical attributes or anything that a person is not able to change (eg race, gender) is not).

Iíve been looking for a theory of humour (and posted this before), based on a discussion that I had with a friend who came from from a hugely successful comicís family (his father was known for combining magic and clowning) and was trying to establish himself as a comedian. He had three main categories, which I think incorporated the following:

Types of humour:
Jokes
Often brief story with a punchline. Can be a humorous one-liners.
Funny Situations
Two or more elements that are combined that show contrast, like a fish out of water or two or more elements that are alike.
Funny Words
Puns.
Spoonerism
Transposition beginning letters of words and changing forms.
Exaggerations
Blown up stories.
Repetitions
Repetition of situations or words that seem unrelated 'til the punchline brings them together.
http://www.laughter.com/comedians/comedy.html
plus his theory of threes which spans a few of the categories shown, where the third thing mentioned (or repeated) gets a laugh.


So here is my entry for the $50 prize (save it until 1/1 and you can send it in Euros, for my travels):

"Doctor, I can't stop behaving like a dog."
"How long have you been acting this way?"
"Since I was a puppy!"



#48376 - 11/22/01 03:03 PM Re: Development of humour  
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this too shall pass
I think that teD is going to be forced to stipulate as to the difference between a "joke" and other humor forms. what about the 'elephant jokes'(1), the 'grape jokes'(2), the 'what's the difference'(3) jokes, etc., etc....

(1) how do you keep an elephant from charging?
(2) what's big and purple and swims in the ocean?
(3) what's the difference between a duck?

(let's see... that would be about... $150, american)


#48377 - 11/22/01 03:10 PM Re: Development of humour  
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>I think that teD is going to be forced to stipulate

And the classic:

"Why did the chicken cross the road?"


#48378 - 11/22/01 03:23 PM Re: Development of humour  
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To show the possum it could be done, is my favorite answer to the chicken joke.

The ironic sense of humor (or simply having a sense of the humorous ironies) is the best of the best, to my taste.

WW


#48379 - 11/22/01 03:49 PM Re: Development of humour  
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this too shall pass
>The ironic sense of humor (or simply having a sense of the humorous ironies) is the best of the best, to my taste.

oh my, now, doubtlessly, someone will ask you to define irony!
8^)


#48380 - 11/22/01 05:09 PM Re: Development of humour  
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Of course, to be fair to TEd, 99 and 44 1/100% of jokes told by professionals are the kind he described.


#48381 - 11/23/01 12:30 AM Re: Development of humour  
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"Doctor, I can't stop behaving like a dog."
"How long have you been acting this way?"
"Since I was a puppy!"

This is a case of the patient's poking fun at himself. Since he is at the doctor's office, he is implying in the first sentence that there is something wrong with acting like a dog. Otherwise why would he bring it up? Then, in response to one of the standard psychiatric questions, he admits that he believes he is a dog. So the butt of the joke is the patient.

I probably spoke rashly in my prior post in offering $50 for a joke that doesn't have a butt, and I suspect I'll be fielding jokes for quite a while. I still believe that in some way every joke except a pun has a butt; sometimes, like all butts should be, it's fairly well covered, and sometimes the butt is so big everyone can see it, as in ethnic jokes.

What I didn't expand upon, and which I had intended to in this thread, was my idea that the reason we groan at puns is that we have no one at whom to laugh. We recognize the humor of the pun, but can't laugh because laughter is in humor at the expense of someone else.

TEd


Edited moments later:

And in the story you related, we are laughing at a person's affliction with a psychiatric illness.





TEd
#48382 - 11/23/01 12:41 AM Three "jokes"  
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(1) how do you keep an elephant from charging?

Take away his credit card. Pun
(2) what's big and purple and swims in the ocean?

Moby Grape -- Implying that the perpetrator of the "joke" is dumb enough to believe it or thinks the listener is dumb enough to believe it.

(3) what's the difference between a duck?

Well, for starters, there's nothing really funny there, but there's the implication that the teller thinks the listener is dumb enough to give serious consideration to an incompl.

You do though bring up something that bothers the holy hell out of me. I would like to hvae a dollar for every time I have seen in the newspaper words to the effect of: "The policeman's bullet was slowed by the suspect's arm and ended up lodged between the wall."

I always want to write a letter to the editor to ask what the rest of the sentence is. But I'm afraid this is becoming so commonplace as to be marginally acceptable. Not by me, you understand!




TEd
#48383 - 11/23/01 12:46 AM "Why did the chicken cross the road?"  
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And the respondent says, " I don't know. Tell me why the chicken crossed the road."

The joke teller replys, "To get to the other side." (How dumb are you that you couldn't figure out the simple answer to a simple question?)



TEd
#48384 - 11/23/01 03:44 AM Re: Three "jokes"  
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(1) how do you keep an elephant from charging?

Take away his credit card. Pun

agreed; the reason I picked this particular elephant joke is that it is probably the only one that is that sophisticated.

(2) what's big and purple and swims in the ocean?

Moby Grape -- Implying that the perpetrator of the "joke" is dumb enough to believe it or thinks the listener is dumb enough to believe it.

this is a very cynical view of this type of joke. it's really just aimed at the childish sense of silliness, and can be appreciated by most at that level.

(3) what's the difference between a duck?

Well, for starters, there's nothing really funny there, but there's the implication that the teller thinks the listener is dumb enough to give serious consideration to an incompl.

perhaps... or it just could be that it's deeply philosophical.



#48385 - 11/23/01 04:22 AM Re: "Why did the chicken cross the road?"  
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Why did the little boy put garbage in his shoes?
To feed his piggies!


#48386 - 11/23/01 04:42 AM elephant jokes  
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here's some of the less sophisticated elephant jokes:

q: why do elephants have flat feet
a: from jumping out of trees.

q: why don't elephants always have flat feet?
a: some elephants wear tennis shoes.

q: why do some elephants have wrinkled feet?
a: from tying their tennis shoes too tight.

q: why do elephants have long noses?
a: so they can swing from limb to limb.

q: why do ducks have webbed feet?
a: so they can stamp out forest fires.

q: why do elephants have flat feet?
a: from stamping out ducks that catch on fire.

q: enough?


#48387 - 11/23/01 01:31 PM Re: Hateful humour  
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The Essence, Origin, and Developement of Humour...or...How I bought a brand new doublewide for Mom. - Milo Washington

Humour is a displacement mechanism. The oriental giggles at the faux pas, she is embarrassed. A bear in mid-charge ,stops, turns, shrugs (figuratively), and goes off to play with a stick. She is confused. The man didn't run. She is embarrassed by the man's inappropriate behavior. The elephant doesn't charge the Landrover, he redirects his anger and knocks down a tree. We humans are a economical bunch, we smile, laugh, at the incongruent in order to get out of the kill mode. Poking fun at another is a indication that one has affection for the other, in other words a joke is an act of kindness towards others or ourselves. A joke is a request FOR forgiveness of the perpetrator of a stupidity, a joke is man's own attempt at Godlike kindness.
Thank you.
PS: Dear tED Remmington, At $50.00 a pop I figger that in redneck jokes alone, you owe me more than all the money that was or ever will be. Please send it soon . I plan to give most of it to charity.


#48388 - 11/25/01 02:19 AM Dixie humour  
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Sweet Milo, your title reminded me a great deal of the southern (U.S.) humorist Lewis Grizzard; enough so that I went to one of his websites. Now, tsuwm has only had partial success in teachin' me not to violate copyright laws, so I'm only gonna copy a parcel of a column of Mr. Grizzard's that caught my eye: it's titled "CROSSING THE MASON-DICTION LINE".

Now, to Dawgs and Hawgs.

A dawg is a Southern man's best friend, as in, "That dawg'll hunt."

A hawg is Southern for, "You can lead a hawg to water, but all he'll try to do is waller in it."

But I was watching a network telecast of the Atlanta-New Orleans NFL playoff game recently and one of the announcers was hyping the telecast of the Independence Bowl. It came out: "It's the Dugs and the Hugs in the Independence Bowl."

It was quite obvious the announcer wasn't, as they used to say back home, "from round heah," which basically meant he was a Northerner.

Read my lips: "Dawwwwwgs." Put your tongue to the roof of your mouth. Then bring it down forcibly and spit out "Dawwwwwgs" by forming the mouth into a circle. If it comes out a little nasal, more the better.

For "Hawwwwwgs," it comes from deep in the throat as in "Haw!" Pretend you're spitting out a bad oyster.

Some announcers also say the Atlanta "FALL-cuns." It's "FOWL-cans." And they say "aw-BURN" when they should pronounce it "AW-bun."

Television, I believe, is responsible for the slow disappearance of all sorts of accents in this country. I'm afraid one day everybody will sound alike, and that would be a shame.


Here's the link to the article, which isn't a whole lot longer than what I just copied...
http://www.lewisgrizzard.com/columns/archive/Crossing_Mason-Diction_Line_09-23-2000.html



#48389 - 11/25/01 03:09 AM Re: Dixie humour  
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"I'm afraid one day everybody will sound alike, and that would be a shame. "

Dear Jackie: I disagree very strongly with the opinion above. Different accents can promote xenophobia, which this country does not need. I regret that television has been so slow to homogenise the nation's accents. I hope for unity, not divisiveness.


#48390 - 11/25/01 04:24 AM Re: Dixie humour  
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I'm afraid one day everybody will sound alike, and that would be a shame. "

Dear Jackie: I disagree very strongly with the opinion above. Different accents can promote xenophobia, which this country does not need. I regret that television has been so slow to homogenise the nation's accents. I hope for unity, not divisiveness


Sorry, Dr, Bill, but I have to disagree. I think losing the diversity and character of linguistic dialect, homogenization, is a sad and B-O-R-I-N-G prospect. Although the mass media, I'm afraid, has rendered this process unavoidable. Not to mention that professinal actors and broadcasters are trained to lose their regional accents. But xenophobia...no. The accents of immigrants who speak foreign languages is a whole nother thing. What this gentleman is pointing out here is the loss of the Southern accent, the Boston accent, the Western twang, etc. (We even have a homegrown, Southern-like twang here in South Jersey
called "piney," native only to folks who live in and around the vast and remote reaches of the Pine Barrens).
I remember when this was mentioned back on another thread someone said that across the pond the Brit broadcasters are encouraged to use their regional accents/dialects. So perhaps this is largely a Usn thing?


#48391 - 11/25/01 02:58 PM Re: Dixie humour  
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Dear WO'N: I say again, the strength of our country is in our unity. Anything leading to divisiveness is to be avoided.
I hope that regional differences will fade away, and be only the study of academics with nothing better to do.


#48392 - 11/25/01 04:12 PM Re: homogeneity?  
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IMHO, my view is that (so long as our differences are not excessive), "Vive la difference!"

and dr. bill, may I suggest that our federal system in part reflects the judgement that regional differences are valuable? When varying states take varying approaches to deal with a problem affecting each of them, the best approach will emerge from the crucible of experience?

#48393 - 11/25/01 04:24 PM Re: homogeneity?  
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Dear Keiva: E pluribus unum.


#48394 - 11/25/01 04:49 PM Re: homogeneity?  
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E pluribus unum.

I don't know if you're helping your case by quoting this, wwh. I think this is interpreted widely as saying that through the vast diversity that we have in this country, we become one nation greater than the sum of our parts. The country was founded on the principles of liberal individualism. Rather than confining the people to one code of behaviors and morals, they made the very rule enforcing the acceptance of diversity the first amendment in the Bill of Rights. The freedom of speech implies the freedom of accent.


#48395 - 11/25/01 06:17 PM Re: Dixie humour  
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rego park
I am with Jackie and Whitman on this one Dr. bill--we share a language, and there is enough TV and other sound-based media out there that we are not going to lose site of "car" even if Wow "Pahrks her cahr in hahrvahrd yahrd" and soda makers of all stripes are not going to go out of business even if all the sweeted, cabonated beverage Jackie drinks are called coke... even if they are orange or cream or lemon-lime.

i might say rode--ee--oh and my california daughter in law says row--dayo, but we both know what we are taking about, a rodeo. we can live with House ton being the proper way to say a ny street, and Hew-ston being a city in texas --and both are spelt Houston. there is no right or wrong way to say it.. there is a NY way, and Texan way.. both are right, and both are understood!




#48396 - 11/25/01 07:41 PM Re: homogeneity?  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
wwh  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
I am in favor of diversity, and against divisivenessh. This would not be a great country if it were all New Englanders.It is part of our good fortune that the horrid phrase "No Irish need apply" is no longer heard, and indeed would be illegal. But there are still bosses who discriminate against employees whose accent they dislike. In many places a complaint to the police may be fruitless if made in the wrong accent.


#48397 - 11/25/01 08:12 PM Re: homogeneity?  
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
Jazzoctopus Offline
old hand
Jazzoctopus  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
Cincinnati & Loveland, Ohio, U...
the horrid phrase "No Irish need apply" is no longer heard

Yeah, but this replaced it: http://www.thedaythatcounts.org/images/pc/p0352.jpg


#48398 - 11/30/01 09:28 PM Re: homogeneity?  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,814
Alex Williams Offline
Pooh-Bah
Alex Williams  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,814
Spam Factory
An Englishman, a Scotsman and an Irishman were the only survivors of a shipwreck in the South Pacific. After three days adrift they washed up on the shore of a nearly barren island. For the next 12 years, they lived a miserable, hardscrabble existence, eating only the few edible nuts and berries on the island and fish. Their hair and beards grew long, their skin became perpetulaly sunburnt, and their clothes rotted off.

One day they found a golden lamp on the beach. The rubbed the lamp, and a genie came out. The men were awestruck as the genie, in a booming voice, announced "I AM THE GENIE FROM THE LAMP. IN RETURN FOR FREEING ME YOU WILL EACH GET EXACTLY ONE WISH. THINK VERY CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU WISH--AS SOON AS YOUR WISH IS UTTERED IT WILL BE IMMEDIATELY AND IRREVOCABLY GRANTED!"

The Englishman didn't have to think long. "I know what I bloody well want," he exclaimed. "I want to be off this God-forsaken island and back in London, with my beautiful wife Bess whom I've missed so dearly all these long, miserable years."

And *POOF!* he was gone.

next, the Scotsman spoke up. "I want to be back in Scotland! Back in Edinburgh with my wife and lovely children whom I've missed growing up all these years stranded on this stinking, festering, hell-hole of an island!"

And *POOF!* he was gone too.

The genie now turned to the Irishman, who looked anxious. "Oh...I dunno," he mumbled. "It's so hard to decide!" He looked around at the island and said, "I miss the guys. I wish they were back."


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