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#47168 11/20/01 02:49 AM
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So, if employe is male and employee is female in some circles, what about referee? Is refere male and referee female?

Wordcoach


#47169 11/20/01 03:08 AM
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Hmmm...interesting, BobY (or "The Cobalt Avenger" as I once dubbed thee! ) So if there is a gender basis for this form deferential (which sounds something akin to the German Die and Der for feminine and masculine connotation respectively) why doesn't this translate into other nouns with the same suffix usage such as payee, referee, attendee, etc.? Do you (or tsuwm?) have a citation that stipulates this usage in English, it would be intersting to see it. Or is it just a sort of common consensus thing like actor and actress, where, now, it seems, except for the Academy Award categories, actor is the word of choice for all thespians, with women using it in self-description as readily as men. But, then, we could never scrap princess for prince, could we? And when, approximately, did the gender forms of employe/ee fall out of favor in usage? You are now the second person next to our editor, BobY, that I ever heard of using this form! Thanks for the elucidating background on this!


#47170 11/20/01 03:14 AM
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#47171 11/20/01 03:28 AM
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Time for a bit of ribaldry, WO'n: "But, then, we could never scrap princess for prince, "

And the majority of batchelors would not trade their mistress for a mister.


#47172 11/20/01 03:56 AM
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It's not like payee, referee, etc., or not exactly. It is, of course, a noun formed from the past participle of the French verb employer = to employ. So un employé is a (male) person employed; une employée is a (female) person employed. These were originally both taken up into English and originally used the accent mark, which is now usually not used. There are others; divorce/divorcee come to mind. (I have to admit that I don't believe I've ever seen the masculine form of divorcee more than once and I don't believe I would ever use it.)


#47173 11/20/01 06:25 AM
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this is quite interesting. OED2 has two separate entries for these:
employé - One who is employed. (In Fr. use chiefly applied to clerks; in Eng. use gen. to the persons employed for wages or salary by a house of business, or by government.) Hence also employée, a female employé.

employee - orig. U.S.
[f. employ + -ee.]
a. A person employed for wages; = employé, which it has now virtually superseded. b. (nonce-use.) Something that is employed.


so, if this is to be credited, we have two separate words with unique derivations -- the U.S. entry formed in the usual manner of adding -ee.

some years ago I remember seeing the 'employe' spelling (with no accent) in our company newsletter. they used it consistently for some time, but then it fell out of vogue again.



#47174 11/20/01 07:46 AM
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Born 18 April 1961, London, England, UK


Brought up in East Grinsted, West Sussex (a long way from Manchester), moved to LA 1981

Yes, I know, I'm afraid the use of the word "claims" is pure prejudice (mine). According to her fan site biography http://here.at/JaneLeeves, when they cast her as Daphne, the producers didn't know what a Manchester accent sounded like! Her accent is politely described as "posh" - the correct term is "weird". For a good Northern accent, try Jane Horrock's "Bubble" in Absolutely Fabulous.



#47175 11/20/01 11:54 AM
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ask or ax?

In my youth (Ah! many years ago W.G & A.S) the use of "ax" was deemed to be a totally West of England rural pronunciation, as in, "Oi axed 'er to marry Oi, but 'er said 'er 'ud ev to ax 'er Dad. So Oi sez to 'er, Oi sez, 't'aint yer Dad as Oi wants to ax ter marry Oi!' "

The rest of the country, by and large, said "ask."


#47176 11/20/01 02:35 PM
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"Oi axed 'er to marry Oi, but 'er said 'er 'ud ev to ax 'er Dad. So Oi sez to 'er, Oi sez, 't'aint yer Dad as Oi wants to ax ter marry Oi!' "

What a lovely piece of English! Note particularly the use of the nominative Oi in the objective case and the objective/possesive 'er in the nominative. So, tell us Rhuby, is Oi axing 'er to be Oi's wife, or is Oi axing 'er to be Oi wife?


#47177 11/20/01 02:48 PM
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Oi's


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