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Joined: Sep 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
AVY WRITES: CapK and ByB you're entitled to your opinions that picking up a gun is doing the active thing, that Gandhi was "wrong" and in the present situation "would have had him impaled in short order." (emphasis mine)
I have to disagree with you K. Avy was telling Cap & BYB off because he thought they were voicing the opinion that the use of guns is o.k. (for Cap) and that BYB would have had Gandhi impaled. BUT this was not what they said at all.
AVY WRITES: I think in the present situation you have keep a control on your mouth.
Telling somebody to shut up is an incendiary remark wouldn't you say?
The term 'impaled' in the way Byb used it was correct. It was one of the ways Attila or Genghis would have used to get rid of an opponent. That is what he was trying to say. That if Gandhi had been faced with one of those two his peaceful method would have failed because they would have dispatched him thusly.
Aye, I do understand that Avy is from India and that Gandhi is a cultural icon but admonishing someone so harshly for something they did not say is wrong.
And K, if you are troubled or disagree with a comment made by Cap or Byb (or anyone for that matter) isn't it better to debate the point than to tell them to keep their mouth under control.
It would have made so much more sense, and been much more civil if Avy had disputed their theories, or brought forth reasons why he considered the guys to be incorrect. Just like you just did with me. I am not hurt or insulted by your comments because I know we are talking it out.
It is only by discussion that things can be resolved.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
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bel says, K, if you are troubled or disagree with a comment made by Cap or Byb ... isn't it better to debate the point than to tell them to keep their mouth under control? (emph. added)
bel, please note that I used no such phrase. Nor did support Avy's use of that phrase: quite the contrary, I took care to indicate calmly that IMHO, Avy's words were excessive.(I said, "I hope I would have [written] with more restraint" than Avy did.)
but I also asserted, with specific support, that it was excessive and unfair overkill to charge Avy with acting "for no reason at all". Others had (doubtless without intent) made provocative remarks: the image of his country's honored hero being impaled.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To illustrate with a humorous story, which unfortunately is probably apocryphal:
At a state dinner held in the French court a few years after the American Revolution, the British ambassador rose and offered his toast to those former British colonies. Said he, "To George Washington, dead or alive." Thereupon Benjamin Franklin rose and announced his own toast, "To the Crown Prince, drunk or sober." "Sir," said the Brit angrily, "that is an insult!" "No insult, sir," said Franklin, "merely a reply to one."
Avy, unlike Franklin, was IMHO excessive. But like Franklin, he cannot be adjudged without considering the words to which he was replying.
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I am duplicating here part of a post I just made in another thread. Something I have never done before, but I'm doing it now to emphasize that I am dead serious about this.
As my sweet insel. said, nerves are frayed by what has happened, and is happening. Its enormity has led us first, to be so thankful that our two NYC members are safe, then into further discussion of events, and then on over into politics and sure enough, that has led to discord (surprise, surprise). Now, on the one hand, it has been a valuable education to me to learn how people in other parts of the world think, but despite my valuing that, the cost has now become too high for me.
tsuwm, I don't know whether or not you come to this board as a refuge. I do, and some others (thank you) have posted that they have. I would very much like to see it go back to being that. The defamatory ambush on my beloved friend came as such a shock, that I don't feel that I can tolerate any more of the public "did too/did not" types of posts that have been appearing: MY nerves are too frayed. So if anyone feels that they need to clarify/defend their position, I would very much appreciate it if you carried that on with whoever the appropriate party is in private.
This is really starting to get to me, you-all.
I...I...so much has happened here, in I & A
I mean, and so much of it is so important, I really don't feel that I can actually suggest that anything further on The Topic be switched over to Miscellany, but...there is at least one thread on it there already, and...especially if folks would take care to mark their posts' subject titles, that would allow me and any others who wish, to avoid reading what we would prefer not to. If you have managed to wade through this ramble, I thank you for your patience.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
In line with some of this, I once heard an, albeit brief, analysis of the practice of ahimsa, or non-violence, according to which the practice could only be successful in the face of a morally developed opponent. "Existentially," I doubt this is true, but as a matter of immediate political activism, it would seem the the efficacy of ahimsa is that it faces the opponent with their own moral repugnance at the attrocity of their actions. Corollary to this, it would probably be prudent to consider what it is, exactly, that is being doubted when the suggestion is made, in essence, that Muslim extremists are not suitable targets of non-violent resistance. That they lack moral fiber is a proposition without foundation. Rather, I believe, the ineffectiveness would have to do with the nature of the conflict: it's geo-political situation in a sort of trans-national virtual space, as well as in the more significant co-marginalization of religious and market fundamentalism and the parallel sacred and secular forms of state. Where the global community has been so profoundly divided, the claim of the moral is unlikely to be seen as universally similar and its reflection is unlikely to be noticed by the perpetrator. But this is a two way cul-de-sac. Ahimsa, at this juncture, will, above all, require self-reflection.
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 724
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 724 |
Dear All
This is not what I intended at all. I didn't want this to happen. Yes Gandhi is highly revered in the India and I was very angry to read comments about him. (I think this is a cross cultural board and people have to be just a little bit careful with their words)
BUT yes! You are absolutely right Belm by that very same reasoning I should have not spoken as I did.
Jackie, I am sorry for making the board worse. I don't like it this way either. It was not my intention. I was angry and I should have probably gone and flung a chair out of the window instead of writing.
BYB I am sorry if I misunderstood - but please remember while writing keep in mind there are people like me around reading and misunderstanding.
CapK - thank you for your silence. But my apology to you too.
Avy
I am just an oppressed woman from the east. Perhaps that is the explanation for the steam coming out of my ears.
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Joined: Mar 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 275
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 275 |
belMarduk>>>>>
It is only by discussion that things can be resolved.
belM, I hope you will stay steadfast in your advocacy of open discussion.
These are not normal times.
We are all nerves and afraying. We are frustrated. We are at the heights of our passions (that is why some are not as meticulous in their pronouncements as they usually are.) There are many issues that as many people as possible have to be enlightened about.
Those who are articulate, those who can elucidate, those who can clarify, those who have accumulated a wealth of knowledge and information pertinent to these times--this is not the time to withdraw. The more truths are sown, the better for everyone.
Those who can enlighten must, with every chance, continue to do so.
Everyone needs to vent. It is cathartic. But we have to do the venting with civility and respect.
Remember we are all very fragile at this time and we easily hurt.
There is enough hurt already, we need no more.
I love everyone of you.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636 |
That monster post is dead. "Ding dong, the wicked post is dead"
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