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Thanks for the info. william. If they have a respectful name for alchohol, does this mean they don't have any teetotallers?
Bingley
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as far as i know, alcohol isn't considered the curse it is in western culture (neither is sex). there are certainly non drinkers, but they usually pass it off as being "weak with alcohol". that doesn't mean that they are abstaining as such, but it might be used to mean that (another language nuance), so who knows really!
"osake" is used in rituals (such as sumo) so partaking is part of the culture, maybe a little different from the boys encouraging you to drink at your first job at 18. for men who don't or can't drink, the company drinking parties (not optional) are quite tough i believe.
it is also laid out at temples. not taking the communion wine might be seen as a little too strict in most christian denominations, i guess it's the same thing.
the point is, most non drinkers will order a drink and sip at it for hours while everytone else gets blistered.
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"sakezuki lusy san" sounds perfect in japanese, by the way!
good ol' G and S!
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>>"sakezuki lusy san" sounds perfect in japanese, by the way!
good ol' G and S!
As in "I am the very model of a sakezuki lusy san"?
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>>there is also "osake" which is the respectful title, used mostly by women, and which never means nihonshu (as far as i know)<<
'O-sake' is indeed an honorific form and generally in Japan women speak more politely than men and use honorific forms more often, so I agree with you that women tend to use this word. However, I've heard it used by women (and maybe men as well, I can't remember) to mean nihonshu.
Maybe the word is used less in this meaning in Sendai as there are more varieties of alcohol available in the big city?
Like I said, you should go to Festival. The question will be 'nani o nomu? Uisuki? O-sake? Biru?' (What are you drinking? Whisky? Sake? Beer?)
... and that's at 9:30 in the morning....
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thanks bridget,
i think i overlooked that one. "osake" can also be used to mean nihonshu in a comparative situation.
bridget, was this used mostly by shop staff to customers?
i can't recall anyone saying it within a group off hand.
by the way (BTW) "obi-ru" always sounds funny to me.
just thought of another slip.
don't award yourself the "san" title when talking to someone japanese (except - maybe -in an obviously humourous way).
other people award titles to you.
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>>by the way (BTW) "obi-ru" always sounds funny to me.<< ABSOLUTELY. In fact, I can't think of a foreign-origin word to which the Japanese apply an honorific. Can you? (Or should this be in the PC thread?  )
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apologies to my good friend annastrophic for us japanese lobby groupists taking over this thread temporarily...
a japanese friend told me that "osake" can even mean traditional alcohol made in japan (as in nihonshu and shouchuu), so the question you were asked at the festival would mean shouchuu in places like kyuushu.
with all the potential situations it gets very complicated.
i think "sake" originally meant alcohol made in japan. as other varieties were imported the word was expanded to mean all alcohol. and in fact young people use it that way now. older people may well use "sake" or "osake" to mean strictly japanese products. and it may still be used to distinguish between imported drinks and japanese drinks (i tried it tonight in a bar - i asked for "osake" and the wait=ress= was really surprised and asked "nihonshu-te koto?") customers almost never ask in this way. they usually ask for "nihonshu".
somehow, from the situation, people understand what is being talked about. when someone asks "osake suki desuka?" they're always asking "do you like alcohol?". but if a bartender asks "osake ha ikaga desuka?" it may well mean "how about nihonshu?" as opposed to all the other drinks on offer. in the same way, "burande-" (brandy) can cover whisky as well for older people.
anyway, "obi-ru" is also a use for mainly older women running bars. it is really unusual for an honorific to be applied to a foreign word. i can think of one other "otoire" (toilet) and will pursue my acquaintances over the next few days to find if there are any more.
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Fine with me, william  .... it's all interesting. But why don't you guys start a new thread? There's lots of room....
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