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#41461 - 09/12/01 04:42 PM
Max Quordlepleen Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409

#41462 - 09/12/01 05:00 PM Re: Photos
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 3439
Loc: New England, USA
Does anyone have a photo of New York skyline before the attack (with the towers) and then a picture of the skyline now to add to Max's gallery?
Perhaps an old post card?

#41463 - 09/12/01 06:30 PM Re: the wisdom of solomon
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10538
Loc: this too shall pass
if you think the choices look difficult now, consider this scenario: it may prove out in the long run that these acts were those of a determined band of *independantly organized fanatics. I don't think this is too far out of the realm of possibilites; consider what was really needed: a dozen men (or less) with death wishes (that's apparently a given), 4 trained in how to steer a commercial jet (this also looks like reality from the reports out of Florida), and the rest in hijacking with sharp pointed objects (another given); 1 man with a plan; $3000 for tickets and rentals (probably less). given this scenario, and assuming that most of the gang expired in the act, how could we possibly ever expect to get satisfactory closure?

#41464 - 09/12/01 07:07 PM Re: Link
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 3439
Loc: New England, USA

for story in International Herald Tribune.

#41465 - 09/12/01 08:42 PM remembrances
xara Offline

Registered: 10/09/00
Posts: 197
Loc: cary, nc, usa
not to spoil everyone's political analysis, but i have something a bit more uplifting to share.

today classes were cancled for 2 hours so that the student body could attend a memorial service of sorts. chancelor, deans, student body president, 2 clergymen, and a school counselor among others spoke. there were prayers and songs (blowing in the wind and god bless america). the student government had arranged a collection to be sent to the red cross (i put in half of what was in my wallet, meager though it was), they had a blood collection today and another one scheduled for a week from today. as a form of peaceful protest they set up voter registration booths for the rest of the week (if they're going to kill us for our democracy this seems like a good way to fight back).

they have also set up some banners around campus on which people can write stories, emotions, thankfulnesses, or whatever else they wish to express. inselpeter, may i print out some of your words from the past few days and post them on one of these banners. they have moved me and i would like to share them.

my best wishes to us all in this time of pain and frustration.

#41466 - 09/12/01 09:06 PM What "resources"?
Flatlander Offline

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 428
Loc: Cape Cod, MA, US
it may prove out in the long run that these acts were those of a determined band of *independantly organized fanatics

tsuwm has expressed (better that I could have) my fears since the beginning of this ordeal. What if the madmen were not a vast organization of Islamic terrorists, but just a small group of fanatics? What if there is no one left to retaliate against? What if by attacking "major" terrorists or the nations that support them we are simply doing just what those behind the attacks wanted us to do?

I sincerely hope that the powers that be are considering this possibility, and are considering the fact that the very leads they are following may be falsely laid tracks leading away from the truth. If you were hijacking a plane, would you leave your car in the airport parking lot with flight instruction manuals and videos in your trunk (as has reportedly been found in Boston)?

I also hope that I am just being overly conspiracy-minded, and that we will find other people responsible for the destruction and punish them with "terrible fury" (in the words of Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy).

I am so glad Helen and Inselpeter are well, and my thoughts and love go out to all of those in NYC, Washington and all over the world who have suffered a personal loss.

#41467 - 09/12/01 09:52 PM Re: Photos
paulb Offline

Registered: 03/17/00
Posts: 460
Loc: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Wow -- I don't have a photo but I do have an image. Some time ago Max posted the following which I added to my desktop to send to a friend but never got round to it. Frightening, isn't it, in retrospect:

Type NYC (all caps) in a large size, say 72 point. Change the font to WEBdings - cute, isn't it? Now, change the font to WINGdings - anything but cute.

I've been reading the posts and thinking of you all -- my heart is with you.

#41468 - 09/12/01 10:34 PM Re: Remedy/response, terrorist attack Sep 11.
Bobyoungbalt Offline

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 1289
There has been discussion of the Palestinians who danced in the streets and gave out candy to children. This is infuriating, and I was infuriated; but then I had to reflect on the reality of Palestinians, very many other Arabs, and Iranians. For three generations they have imbibed with their mothers' milk hatred of the Jews, Israel, America and Americans, who are the sponsors of Israel. It's reinforced all their lives long in their schools, mosques and families. Yet the vast majority of these people learn little else. Except for the privileged few, they live in squalor and ignorance worse than old-time European or Chinese peasants. They know no more of Jews, Israel, American and Americans than we know of Hottentots. Their lives are full of hate, desperation, envy of the more fortunate and even self-hatred. No wonder you can convince young men in the prime of life from this culture to voluntarily blow themselves up; they have little or nothing to lose and are told they have paradise to gain.

I heard on NPR an Israeli talking about an Arab fruitseller in Jerusalem who was dancing around the market, exulting, "Allaha be praised! The Americans are finished!" Poor deluded fool. Little does he know that we are far from being finished. On the contrary -- we are more united, more resolute to combat terrorism and terrorists, and more ready to do something about terrorism than we have ever been. So I'm prepared to be magnanimous to these deluded wretches who have been kept in poverty and ignorance by their leaders for decades. But as to their leaders? The recruiters who find bombers, the trainers, the planners?

If I were president, which thank God I am not, I would announce tomorrow that the U.S. Embassy will move next week to Jerusalem. Futher, that the U.S. will recognize Jerusalem as the permanent and undivided capitol of Israel and that the U.S. will oppose any effort to give any part of the city to any other entity. Then let's see who dances in the streets.

But here's another issue. It seems that the ignorant masses have been and are being taught that deeds like those of yesterday are pleasing to Allah and are enjoined by the Quran. I have heard from a number of Moslems that this is false and directly contrary to Islam and the Quran. If so, why are these people allowed to get away with this without contradiction? Where are the great clerics, the high-ranking mullahs, the ayatollahs, the professors at Al-Azhar who are supposed to have the last word on Islam and the interpretation of the Quran? Why are they not speaking out in the most forceful terms to denounce a perversion of Islam? I would be glad to hear from any of our board who may be Moslem about this.

Lastly, it is all very well and good for G.W. to look stern and assure the American people that those who harbor and assist terrorists will be punished the same as the perpetrators themselves. It is supposed that if it turns out to be Bin Laden, reprisal will fall on the Taliban. But it is well known that Bin Laden's wealth is in Saudi Arabia (millions) and that the Saudis forward money to him when he wants it and that they have taken no steps to sequestrate or seize his assets. If there is clear evidence that Bin Laden was behind the attack, are we going to take reprisals against the Saudis, who make funds available to him, even if it is his money? And risk having all that oil denied to us as well as to Europe and Japan? Will the Europeans and Japanese support us if (har-di-har-har) we decide the Saudis must be punished? I greatly fear that the question of reprisals will, in the end, be subject to a lot of political and economic considerations and careful analysis of what oxen will be gored. That's not how it should be.

#41469 - 09/12/01 10:52 PM Re: Remedy/response, terrorist attack Sep 11.
WhitmanO'Neill Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 4189
Loc: Rio Grande, Cape May County, N...
The problem is I don't know if we command enough respect in the eyes of these beasts to react with authority anymore. We have been proven vulnerable too many times. I believe the roots of this all started
1. When the Carter Administration flinched on attacking when Iran took our hostages in '79. Yes, the lives of those 50 government workers could have been lost in such an attack and hindsight is 20/20, but they knew the risks involved in accepting a government job overseas, and we should've gone right in after them. The aborted rescue mission later was just an incidental after-fact. That's when our respect in the world starting slipping. And 2. In 1983 when we lost 283 Marines in Beirut (figure may be slightly off) the Reagan Administration knew they could do nothing, and did nothing except to divert a gullible public's attention by going into the pismire island-country of Granada to satisfy their need to strike out at "something." But, ultimately, those (or the country/countries) responsible were never brought to justice either by litigation or military response.
Besides, Reagan and his cronies (including Bush, Sr.) were too busy covering their tracks of dealing arms to Iran as a gift for holding the hostages until he was assured of ascending to power...as soon as he lifted his hand from the Bible at his 1st inauguration, presto!...instant hostage release! But that's another story.
After these two events it was open season on Americans, and then their Western allies as well...solitary hostages, plane blasts, European airports, etc. Once they found out they could strike at the US and get away with it, there was no turning back.

And once a fanatic fuses politics with religion and is ready to die for their "cause," how do you stop them? I don't know if you can. Though squeamish about capital punishment, I've often said that after the first World trade Center bombing which I considered to be an act of war designed to destroy the towers and kill tens of thousands of innocent people, that the perps, immediately upon conviction, should've been marched against a wall on camera and executed by firing squad. Show them we will not fool around. But, of course, our sense of justice bequeathed these genoicidal maniacs to life terms in humane prisons...sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll. Unless they're in solitary for protection. If so I hope they immediately release these subhuman assholes to the general inmate population which I'm sure would be delighted to mete out thorough justice to them at this point. Yes, I believe in mercy and forgiveness, but there is a point where you have to draw a line in the sand, and I've reached it. The stakes are now clear...if you're an American, you die. Remember that cynical and insulting release of black hostages all through the '80's, as if African-Americans were going to fall for that ploy of differentiation. Well, the terrorists took care of that fable when they bombed the US embassies in Africa. But the problem is, it isn't just Americans...these genoical maniacs who think they speak for their Muslin God...they don't. And certanly not for the vast majority of the Muslin faithful, it really is a religion of peace, so I really fail to understand this constant slaughter of the innocent in the name of their God) are trying to take on the entire world...us, Russia, the Hindus in India, all of Western Europe, their own secular governments, everybody...it's just craziness! And the real problem is that if you convict and execute any of thes culprits they're very happy to be martyred for their cause, thank you, and are hailed and viewed as such...what's the point of killing people who are perfectly willing and happy to die? So where's the answer, people? I pray to see it...but I just don't know. And we can't afford to go out, now, and blast away at dubious targets like that grain factory in Sudan, or strike areas that will kill any innocent civilians.
(Saddan Hussein...who I think is very culpable in this attack...but his name is not mentioned enough...this IS after all, the one and the same Bush administration he went to war with in '91, why wouldn't he take another shot at it? But maybe the Bushes don't want anybody to consider this?...anyway, Saddam is still sitting pretty in his royal palace, thank you, while 100,000 or so of his countrymen have died around him as th result (directly or indirectly) of the Gulf War, including an estimated 40,000 children...which shows and proves you have to kill the head, not just the body, or it doesn't go away). Violate the international law of political assassination instead of all these "collateral" innocent lives, or, ultimately, what we're witnessing today? YOU BET!! GO FOR IT!!! We have the technology and trained covert forces to get it done! Any proven mass-murdered or war criminal...Saddam, Bin Laden, etc. I don't think we have a choice. Not any more. But, ultimately, too, the sad reality is, that as long as there are people willing to die in suicide missions, what can the world do? And,what, for God's sake, do these people WANT??? How did it come to all this?

#41470 - 09/13/01 12:32 AM Re: Remedy/response, terrorist attack Sep 11.
inselpeter Offline

Registered: 03/14/01
Posts: 2379
Loc: New York City
Whitman and Boby,

Reading your posts saddens me terribly.

"They" are not monolithic.

The Palestinians do not celebrate out of 'ignorance,' in a narrow sense of the word; they are among the most highly educated populations in the world. And if they are taught to hate us, so are we taught to hate them. Their complaints against Israel and the United States are not without reason.

Let us not invent the enemy, but find him and destroy him.

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