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Is the expression "The White House" as commonly heard in the media an example of synecdoche?
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Yes. It is being used representatively for "the President" or more generally for "the agents of government" or some such phrase, presumably.
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Is it just me or does anyone else here find this term, in a landscape of precise rhetorical meta-language, to be very general?
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Yes. Which helps me, since I can actually *remember this one! and therefore get to use it rather than confuse it with 73 other Greek terms that I used to know once upon a time 
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> Yes. Which helps me, since I can actually *remember this one!Yes, you've got a point there. Vernon, in case you didn't know, THE resourse for Greek meta-terminology is 'The Forest of Rhetoric' located at the following addy: http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/silva.htmThere you'll find a far more indepth look at 'synecdoche' and related terms than any dictionary will provide... good question, by the way :-)
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In reply to:
http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/silva.htm
Thank you for the link, belligerentyouth. I think I found an error in the section on synecdoche.
The rustler bragged he'd absconded with five hundred head of longhorns.
Both "head" and "longhorns" are parts of cattle that represent them as wholes
Am I mistaken in thinking that, since "longhorn" is a specific breed of cattle, the rustler may not have been using two instances of synecdoche? I read the statement as defining the type of cattle he stole, "longhorns", as opposed to Charolais, Angus, Hereford or Guernsey.
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yeahbut. 
long·horn (lông'hôrn', lŏng'-)
n.
1. Any of a breed of cattle with long horns, formerly bred in great numbers in the southwest United States.
2. A variety of Cheddar cheese molded into a long cylinder.
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The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.So I don't reckon it does describe a breed as such, just a general description of type. After all, we used to have dairy shorthorn, beef shorthorn... But I love the way that the second definition gives a further example of the migration of meaning via synecdoche (cow to cheese).
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The synecdoche of a cynic duck.
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than a toilet duck
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A duck that works out at the White Dog Gym?
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"Vy a duck?" -- Chico Marx
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re yeahbut
You are right. Here is the reply I received when I asked the author of the page the same question:
You raise an interesting issue. I have two answers. First, the power
of figurative language is in its connotations, not its denotations, and
so the factual accuracy of a trope is less important than its effect.
In other words, "longhorn" really could stand in for cattle generally,
and not just that breed. You could also refer to your car as your
"wheels" and be understood, even if your car had no wheels. Second, it
is not uncommon for indirect references to migrate in what they point
to. For example, "trampoline" used to be a brand name, "Trampoline,"
but its very success caused it to become a generic term (synecdoche is
precisely this trope of referring to a genre by naming a species within
it). The same thing has happened with Xerox (now a generic noun and verb
for photocopying), and Kleenex. Someone can say they've bought some
Kleenex even though they bought some no-name brand, and we would not
accuse them of being false. Why? Because we accept synecdoche as a fair
substitution for the factual name.
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"trampoline" used to be a brand name
Then does it have any original, generic name? "Springy-bouncy circle thing"?
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Dear VC: thanks for that informative post. I have trouble enough remembering the Greek terms, that every bit of explanation is very welcome. Please forgive my corny joke. That was how a giirl in my highschool class pronounced it almost seventy years ago. I could remember the mispronunciation when I couldn't remember the definition.
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Re: The same thing has happened with Xerox (now a generic noun and verb for photocopying), and Kleenex.
well, almost but not quite-- US and UK dictionaries still note that these are brand names. and both companies wage legal battles to keep them that way.
Asprin is a better example-- it used to owned by the Bayer company, but it now a generic word in US (i believe this is a bit of yart, and there are lots of detail about Bayer/asprin and how it lost its copyright protection, about 6 months back.. so if you want more detail, go hunting. )
I wonder about hoover. In US this is still a brand name.. but in UK it seems to be generic for vacuuming.
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of Troy is correct. Another example is "Jello": their adds consistently refer to "Jello brand" geletin dessert, in an effort to prevent the term Jello from becoming generic.
I believe the old Bissell carpet sweepers also lost their trademark protection: folks would refer to "bisseling the carpet."
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your post reminds me of a summer in my childhood, that helped to trigger my interest in words. In 1960, my mother took the entire family back to Dublin, my grandfather had been just diagnosed with a terminal condition.
We spent 3 full month is ireland. My sister Geraldine, who is two year youngr than i, had the worst time of it. she was constantly caught in a language trap-- she was just too young to learn a new set of vocabulary.
one day, visiting one of our aunts, she asked for "jelly" on her bread. my aunt kept insisting she didn't have any, and Geraldine kept pleading. Geraldine could see the jar of strawberry preserves.. and couldn't understand why she could have just a little.. and my aunt, was completely perplexed by the idea of jelly on bread..
For me, the time is filled with rich memories.. but i was a cheeky yank, who thought nothing of correcting my elders.. i didn't know why they called it a pram-- but i knew when asked about the pram to go over to the baby carriage. i was, luckily, just the right age, i quickly learned the money, and all sorts of wickedness-- day one i was taught how to hitch a ride on the open end of a bus! and i was able to understand what was going on about me.. that summer i learned a new vocabulary, and learned to love words.
when we first headed off to ireland, i expected to be bored--since a good deal of the time was going to be spent visiting relatives. but i was never bored.. the trip opened my mind.
Do any of you have a words, or words that mark the beginning of your love for words?
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Reminds me of the revulsion I felt when reading a book set in the US, and first came across the idea of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. It was a long time before I caught on what they were talking about.
Bingley
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The peanut butter and jelly sandwich is one of those things that lodges early on and confirms an ineradicable impression that Americans will eat anything. The discovery years later that it is actually a peanut butter and jam sandwich did not, I have to say, assuage my horror much. Nor did the discovery that some people combine chocolate and... erp, excuse me......
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Nor did the discovery that some people combine chocolate and... erp, excuse me......
Marshmallows and crackers? It tastes fine!
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My Associated Press Style Book gives the proper (brand) name of the wriggley desert as Jell-O. ?
Is this becoming (Horrors!) a food thread?
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confirms an ineradicable impression that Americans will eat anything.
Excuse me? Blood pudding, tripe. Ahem
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Bingley, I had never, ever thought about jelly as gelatin, in a sandwich! How perfectly bazaar it must have sounded!
and peanut butter its self, is a food, that tend to be a love/hate it food.. I remember the first time i had it.. my mother was in the hospital, giving birth to my sister, and during the day, neighbors provided "day care". I loved it! and cried and cried for my mother to buy it. She hated it. the sight of it, and the smell, and i am sure she never tasted it! but it was cheap, and nutritious, and she gave in.
But, "peanut butter and jelly sandwiches" must have sounded strange, indeed!
It's interesting how the name of food can effect us.. we always called it black pudding.. and it wasn't till i was grown that i knew it to be blood sausage.. and a local indonesian restaurant calls one of the dishes "pig intestines in chili sauce"-- which sound much less appetizing than "chitterlings* in hot gravy".
*chitterlings = chit'lins (US and ???)
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My father would eat nothing made with gelatine, claiming that a principal starting material was horses' hoofs.
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Okay, but is there a word that is a personal sort of Synecdoche? a word that conjures up a meaning, that perhaps is related to the actually meaning, but goes beyond, and has a personal treasure trove.
for me "jelly" rememind me of the summer spent in ireland, an learning a new vocabulary...
for bingley, the same word conjures up a world of stange people, eating even stranger food.. I suspect, that now days, he mentally translates "jelly", when he comes across it in a US english article, to "Jam"-- and might think "cream cheese and jelly" to be an odd combination, but but at least does not think it refers to some sort of dairy and gelatin dessert. it might be translated as "creme fraise and preserves, served on toast points" he might not even be put off.
Haven't you come across a word, that you either mis understood, or that started you down a path that lead to so much more? Max's thread on diphthongs is doing that now.. it is exploring language, geography, history, culture-- commonalities, and differernce in the whole of the south pacific!
Will you ever use the word diphthongs again, with out thinking about the Maaori language, and how it relates to the other languages in the area? hasn't diphthong become a word for us, that suggest more than a combination of vowel sounds?
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she asked for "jelly" on her bread. ... Geraldine could see the jar of strawberry preserves.
Nor is it jam.
In USn's us(e)age:
Jelly made from fruit juice etc.
Jam made from fruit etc., all boiled up till it is homgenous.
Preserve has intact pieces of fruit in it.
Marmalade has citrus rind in it.
What would be the Brit term for what USns call jelly?
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Jam made from fruit etc., all boiled up till it is homgenous.
And jam sometimes had the fruits' seeds in it as in raspberry jam and strawberry jam.
And what is the only fruit that carries its seeds on the outside? Strawberry.
(Or weren't you paying attention to that exchange beteen "President Bartlett" and his staff on "The West Wing?")
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jam sometimes had the fruits' seeds in it
Yeah, well, the seeds don't always boil up so good.
And some are easier to remove than others.
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the seeds don't always boil up so good.
And some are easier to remove than others
Right on, Faldage!
Especially from between the teeth ... and boiling is not recommended for that!
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I never hear the word "Jelly" without being reminded of Fats Waller : It must be Jelly, because Jam don't shake like that..... http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/6704/
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In English Quebec we use same words as U.S. but some differently...
Jelly is made from fruit juice and gelatin. Not a common item in Québec as the French tend to prefer jam. We do have mint jelly to put on lamb.
Jam is made from fruit but is NOT homogenous, it has a lot of fruit pulp and intact pieces of fruit. The fruit is cooked on stovetop with sugar. In Québec, jam is very thick. In most of the other Canadian provinces jam is much runnier.
Preserves is not a word that is used for jam or jelly but for anything that you "can" (mason jars). For example you might have tomato preserves from your garden of the summer before. Oddly, you can make jam from your garden fruit but you still don't call it preserves.
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>Whereas for Zildians, "Jello" is one of those dead giveaways that tags someone as USn.
Here too.
"Jello brand" geletin dessert sounds 'sgusting! Like the paket of cake mix a friend brought over which proudly proclaimed "With real artificial flavor".
Although we know that some people hate lengthy discussion about food. ...
Part of the growing up process (if we are lucky) is that the things we learn in our childhood are not necessarily the only answer. I can learn to live with the idea that people are not wrong when they write "aging", rather than "ageing" but food beliefs, because they relate to sensation, not thinking, are harder to change. Perhaps it is so important that we don't eat food that is poisonous, we are programmed to accept what we are told by our own culture. The window of opportunity for new tastes is relatively small. While as an adult we may learn that anchovies and olives taste better than we may have remembered as a child, the tastes of childhood (eg peanut butter and jelly) are harder to re-programme. In fact some smells, literally turn our stomach, I still can't drink gin, having come across it as a child and hated the smell.
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Jam
Hence the peanut butter and jelly problem.
Even though the technical term for jam made from fruit juice may be jelly, it isn't really used as an everyday term. In the supermarket, on the "jam" shelves, you might see a jar marked as "bramble jelly" "apricot preserve". At breakfast in a hotel you would be offered a selection of jam and marmalade.
Post Script: I've just remembered another category of jellies, eaten with savoury foods.
Q: "Would you like jam with your lamb?"
A: "Yuk"
Q: "Would you like jelly with your lamb?"
A: "Yuk"
Q: "Would you like redcurrant jelly with you lamb?"
A: "Mmmm, quite possibly"
So we do have the precedent of eating jelly but we choose to forget, possibly because we only hear "redcurrant-jelly", rather than filing it in our brain as jelly(redcurrant). I dunno.
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Re: another category of jellies..
I am with faldage, jelly is made from fruit juice, and is clear.
it it naturally thickened, or has added pectin: a naturally occuring fruit product that jells liquid-- also an ingredient in Kayopectate
but jellies.. jellies are jelled candy.. as in jelly beans, or Chuckles, or chocolate covered, jellied raspberry rings-- a staple in NY candy stores.
a store might have a large selection of jelly, jam and preserves.. not a selection of jellies..unless it sold candy.
and curiously, in US, Mint Jelly-- (found in same place as fruit jellies, jams and preserves) is served with lamb, not red current jelly.(neither in my house!) Mint jelly is mint tea made with an apple juice base, pectin and tinted green--vile stuff!
and red current jelly or lemon curd can only be found in gourmet shops. and lingoberry and cloudberry in Ikea. Chutney and other spice fruit condiments, including ketchup, are grouped with pickles in most stores.
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I was sure I could settle the question of exactly what jam and jelly is and Lo! I found the definitive source.
Explanatory Notes to the Harmonized Commodity Description and Coding System is a very scholarly and universally accepted sourcebook on the meaning of terms used in the Harmonized Tariff System, which is the classification of goods for import or export used by nearly every country in the world to categorize goods so they can be declared and duty assessed. Chapter 20 covers prepared foodstuffs and heading 2007 covers jams, jellies and other preparations of fruits. Only jams and jellies are mentioned; the word "preserves" is not.
The Explanatory Notes saith:
Jams are made by boiling whole fruit or fruit pulp or certain vegetables (e.g., marrows, aubergines) or other products (e.g., ginger, rose petals) with sugar in approximately equal proportions. When cool they are of moderately firm consistency and contain pieces of the fruit.
Marmalades are a variety of jam generally prepared from citrus fruit.
Fruit jellies are prepared by boiling fruit juices (expressed from raw or cooked fruit) with sugar until the product sets on cooling. They are of firm consistency and free from pieces of fruit.
In the U.S., the word "jam" has the meaning noted above, but it is not used as nearly as frequently as in UK English, and it is rare that it is called that on the label of a jar (except, of course, imported jams). A domestic jar of jam is invariably labelled as "strawberry preserves", or "apricot preserves" or whatever.
BTW, I expect I shall use the Explanatory Notes again some time to settle a question of exactly what something means. It's a really fascinating work and has legal authority. I spent hours once learning about fabrics, and the exact description (often with pictures or drawings) and meaning of words like twill, denim, gabardine, jersey, selvage, orlon, ramie etc.
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BobY, I love that title! What a wonderful thing to do to commodities! In my experience, jam is in fact a bit different from preserves. Both contain pieces of fruit, but preserves, and marmalade for that matter, tend to be "looser". That is, they can pour off your spoon, albeit slowly. Jam just sits there in a determined clump, even if you turn your spoon upside down. Mostly I see strawberry preserves on the grocery store shelves, yes, but occasionally strawberry jam as well. But I don't think I have ever heard of say, blackberry or raspberry preserves. They are always jam or jelly, here. Now--since you mention material (is that different than "fabric", by the way, in the Harmony book?), I have seen, felt, and worn ramie cotton, and I am hoping you will tell me what the differences are between something labeled ramie and something labeled cotton.
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yes, I am with Jackie.. I think your book could be wonderfull for exploring the difference between cotton, ramie, and rayon..
I think, cotton is fabric made from the fruiting body of a cotton plant, but rayon is fabric made from celulose, plant materiel from stem or trunk of a trees, and ramie? ramie, i think is fiber from plants too, it is, i think, something similar to linen, there fiber is found in leaves, stems, and seperated from the pulp of the plant using lye... but i am not clear on the difference between rayon and ramie.. since both are made from fibers found in stems/leaves/trunks. Is ramie, a generic? and pineapple cloth (made from the fibers extracted from pineapple leaves) a specific kind of ramie? or is ramie narrowly defined like cotton?
and garbardine and denim? denim is a strong, thick cotton gaberdine, that is, it is woven with a strong diagonal pattern, created by a 2 under, 1 over weave.. and twill is a gaberdine type weave, but the pattern is alternated, so as to create a cheveron pattern in the weave..
but what make denim differernt that gaberdine?
english is filled with all these technical terms that we use vaguely..
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Well, I'll have to spend some time with the book and take notes.
Bill provided a link to a site which tells about ramie. I knew that it was a distinct kind of vegetable fibre of oriental origin, and I have a sweater made of ramie, at least in part, so I know what it's like. It's like coarse silk.
Cotton is, of course, made from the fibre of cotton plants, of which there are various types. Rayon has nothing to do with ramie; rayon is a man-made fibre like nylon, orlon, etc.
I'll compile what looks to me like some interesting dope on fabric and post it. If you have any specific questions, pm or email me.
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Good heavens, Bill, thank you--I'd always seen clothing labeled "ramie cotton", and thought it was some specific type of cotton. You learn something every day, don't you?
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Rayon is an "man made material"-- it is reprocessed celulose. rayon is made from plant fibers. (wood pulp?) nylon, acrylic, poly esters, etc., are man made material, but from petro-chemicals, or some other organic base.
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Bobyoungbalt offers to compile what looks ... like some interesting dope on fabric and post it. Got any interesting dope on hemp?
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Got any interesting dope on hemp?
As you may have been hinting, a forbidden product of the hemp plant is marijuana. There are many items on Internet about recent research into medical uses of marijuana, still very controversial.
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I'm not sure if this is where the love of words started for me, but one of my favourite words is "trivia". The explanation I heard was that it comes from the name the Romans had for signposts placed at a three way road junction. (I never learnt Latin but the explanation sounds viable - (just spotted the irony in this disclaimer)) How true it is I don't know (although I'm sure I'll find out after posting this ;), but it did pique my interest. This is a large part of why I'm here at AWAD now - I love to find out about words I have taken for granted for years.
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As an alternative to peanut butter and jam /jelly, you could always try peanut butter and marmite (probably UK only - sorry). It may sound odd, but tastes just like dry roasted peanuts. Superb!
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signposts placed at a three way road junction
Dunno about signposts. Way I heard it there were shrines to Diana at places where three roads came together and that Diana was worshipped under the name Trivia. Origin of tivia meaning worthless information may come from the lesser of the two divisions of the seven liberal arts in medieval universities. The divisions were the trivium and the quadrivium. The trivium were grammar, rhetoric and logic. The quadrivium were umm, geometry, astronomy, arithmetic and music. I had to look it up; never can remember them'ns. Quadrivium, that is. Trivium I remember.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Marmite and Jelly sandwich. Marmite turns out to be a UK sandwich spread made from brewer's yeast, apparently almost a hundred years old, and very popular. For a URL: http://www.accomodata.co.uk/marmite.htm
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
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addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
Marmite turns out to be a UK sandwich spread made from brewer's yeast
Marmite is recognised by the British as a national icon unavailable abroad, and is always one of the items taken in food parcels when visiting expatriates. This practice features in literature and in folk lore as much as in reality. For example, my daughters invitation to her going-away-to-Germany party next weekend has the line "Missing Marmite already".
Marmite run a series of ads under the common theme "love it or loathe it". One shows a girl sneaking a quick bite of a marmite sarny before returning to snog her boyfriend who immediately starts gagging.
Does Vegemite have the same connotations for our Oz and Zildean cousins?
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Here's what our illustrious Max had to say about Vegemite, Rod:
[instructive rant]
This sounds like another philistine who spreads Vegemite as though it were jam, or peanut butter. Vegemite should be smeared thinly, heavy stress on thinly, in order to truly appreciate its magnificence. A 5 gram container, the sizer you get with hotel breakfasts should do for at least three slices of toast. [/instructive rant]http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=14095Author's note: I hestitated before posting this. The thread this came from has aspects that I would prefer not be resurrected, hint hint.
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