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#37121 - 07/31/01 04:26 AM  
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Max Quordlepleen Offline
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#37122 - 07/31/01 11:03 AM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!  
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Jackie Offline
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Sweet Max, fret not, my friend, fret not. I doubt there is anyone who has perfect pronunciation. And who's to say what that is, anyway? Each country, even, has regional variations, let alone the differences between countries.
And not just vowels, either-rrrr, hee-yah? In Kentucky, you can hear something like this: Lemme borry yer pin to wraht with.

Singing pronunciation does or should differ, though, I think. Bob? AnnaS.? Faldage? Have other singers been taught this? As an example, in choir I sing ow-er, not are,
for the word our. 'Are' is very commonly heard here for
'our', and sounds even worse sung than it does spoken.


#37123 - 07/31/01 11:22 AM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!  
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Bean Offline
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Dear MaxQ,

Coming from a country where our neighbours to the South firmly believe we say "oot" and "aboot" instead of "out" and "about", I understand your pain! We don't really say those words that way, of course, and I think I've said this before, we just use a different dipthong (uh-oo) before an unvoiced consonant, whereas in the US they use the same dipthong (ah-oo) whether the consonant is voiced or unvoiced!

Anyway, I figure, as long as you pronounce things the way everyone around you did when you were learning to speak, then your accent must be "right" for where you live!

(Recently there was an international choral festival here. A choir from Australia was being interviewed on the radio, and commented on the "funny accents" here. After the segment, the announcer wondered aloud - just whose accent was funny!?)


#37124 - 07/31/01 11:31 AM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!  
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AnnaStrophic Offline
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I'll leave Faldage to comment on pure vowels for me. Whatever he says, I agree with a priori.

(and it's diphthong, not dipthong!!)


#37125 - 07/31/01 12:27 PM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!  
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Bean Offline
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(and it's diphthong, not dipthong!!

[sarcasm] Oh yeah, right, such a common combination of letters - phth - how could I get it wrong![/sarcasm]


#37126 - 07/31/01 12:56 PM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!  
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rodward Offline
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and it's diphthong, not dipthong!!

It's quite easy to remember Bean; a dipthong is a very thin bikini, a diphthong ties two dipherent vowel sounds together!
Rod




#37127 - 07/31/01 12:58 PM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!  
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Faldage Offline
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For what it's worth, Max, according to Vox Latina in classical Latin the sounds of an unaccented i and an unaccented u were practically indistinguishable.

But!

What Jackie says is right: "Singing pronunciation does or should differ. The vowels in Italianate Church Latin are pure Italian vowels ah, eh, ee, oh and oo none of which are diphthongs.

But, wait! That's not all!

There is also German Church Latin. Most of the noticeable differences in German Church Latin have to do with consonant pronunciation but the long e seems to be undergoing a Great Vowel Movement® similar to the Great Vowel Shift that English underwent in the 16th and 17th centuries and is pronounced rather more towards the sound of the long i.

Carmina Burana is however largely *not Church Latin (despite having been collected and even in some cases written by monks) and therefore not subject, strictly speaking, to the rules of Church Latin pronunciation. If you are singing in a group situation you will be subject to the dictates of the director. If you are singing by yourself, feel free to pronounce any way you want. I, for example, in the privacy of my own shower or automobile (or even when serenading my favorite phone callee) when I indulge in a stirring rendition of The Swan Song from Carmina Burana will, if doing my own setting, pronounce cygnus as tsinknoos.


#37128 - 07/31/01 03:43 PM Singing pronunciation  
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Bobyoungbalt Offline
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Jackie and Faldage are both correct about pronunciation in singing. And it isn't just a matter of how you pronounce Latin etc. Even when singing in English there are times when the normal spoken pronunciation of a vowel needs to be altered so that the mouth is better shaped to enunciate the musical tone. You will have noticed that singers generally have their mouths open and rounded, which is to produce a sonorous tone; but you can't pronounce the short flat vowel sounds with your mouth like that, so for euphony the vowel is made deeper or more round. On the other hand, especially in Latin but sometimes in other languages, a final 'e' sound has to be shortened to 'eh' for the sake of the musical tone. It is also necessary frequently to suppress the letter 's' so a choir doesn't sound like the reptile house at the zoo.


#37129 - 07/31/01 05:24 PM Re: Singing pronunciation  
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musick Offline
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Aside from the dipthong *issue (which I believe is a "subjective" one), the throat and facial muscle tensions needed to create certain vowel sounds is an important reason for vocalists to avoid their use, as these tensions will easily interfere with the resonance the voice is allowed when relaxed... not to mention (again) the enunciation and euphony.

BYB ...but there is *nothing like a choreographed group of reptiles.


#37130 - 07/31/01 05:35 PM Contriving a pun  
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AnnaStrophic Offline
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But, wait! That's not all!

Faldage, are you a BassMaster?®
not bad for someone who does The Swan Song in vowelly pure falsetto!




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