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Pooh-Bah
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Where do we get the word "understand" to mean "comprehend"? This seems like an unusual construction. I guess I need an overview before I can understand.
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Carpal Tunnel
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I guess that it so old that the beginnings are lost. German has very similar word: "Verstehen".
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Carpal Tunnel
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Perhaps because when you stand under something you have a better view of it? [this-is-a-serious-question emoticon]
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Carpal Tunnel
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I've searched high and low for the etymology of "understand" to no avail. The best I could come up with was "origin unknown."
O tsuwm where are thou?
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old hand
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Perhaps because when you stand under something you have a better view of it?
When you stand under something you get a different perspective, but certainly not always a better one. It's usually pretty dark underneath things.
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understand, to step/stand under > to take upon oneself, to venture, presume > to grasp the idea of; comprehend
[OE. understondan, -standan (under-1 8a), = OFris. understonda, MDa. understande, MSw. undi(r)standa, OIcel. (as a foreign word) undirstanda. Cf. MLG. understân to understand, to step under, MDu. onderstaen (Du. -staan), MHG. understân, -stên (G. unterstehen), to take upon oneself, to venture, presume, etc. With a different prefix, the same use of stand appears in OE. forstandan, OS. farstandan, OHG. far-, firstantan (firstân), and MHG. verstân, -stên (G. verstehen), MDu. verstaen (Du. -staan).
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J.R. Clark-Hall's Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary defines understandan as to understand, perceive, observe, notice, take for granted, which fits in (sort of) with tsuwm's range in his post. Clark-Hall also references the Latin subsistere leading me to suppose that it was taken as a loan-translation from the Latin, but according to tsuwm's etymology citation this must have happened well before English hit the British Isles.
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old hand
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This is a fascinating thread! On one hand, understanding can also mean "agreement among parties", this would be Verständigung in German. On the other hand German unterstehen now means "to be subordinated to", "to belong to the domain of..". Could it be that there was a root of "consensus" in the word "understand"?
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As Bill has already pointed out, understand is similar to verstehen in German, but nevertheless the closest literal partner to 'understand' in German would be unterstehen (to be subordinate to), <scratching head>.
English and German both have other words with '-stand' / '-stehen', e.g. 'withstand' or 'bestehen', 'entstehen', respectively. When one considers that Alex's alternate verb for understanding (to comprehend) derives from 'to grasp' in Latin, it isn't much of a stretch to discern the common link of firmly embracing a concept or the nature of sth... or as AHD puts it .. 'To take in the meaning of' IMWO <g>.
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Carpal Tunnel
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English and German both have other words with '-stand' / '-stehen', e.g. 'withstand' … The with in withstand is, of course, a remnant of the old meaning of with meaning against, the original word for indicating combination, accompaniment, presence, or addition * was mid. *From Merriam-Webster On-line ( http://www.m-w.com/)
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Please, would the members of the Board stand for a discussion of the origin of the phrase "stand for". I suspect it came from breeding horses, but have no means of confirming that.
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bill, are you thinking of 'to stand at stud'? most of the early uses of 'stand for' are in the sense of stand for election, or stand (in) for someone, which led to "I won't stand for..."
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Dear tsuwm: And I am obliged to good naturedly standing for your razzing me. Of course I did elect to.
I suspect the phrase is older than elections.
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71. stand for I. a. To uphold, defend (a cause, etc.); to support, take the part of (a person). Also, †to stand hard for.
a1300 Cursor M. 18933 To stand ai stitli for þe fai, And thrali preche al crist lai. c1380 Wyclif Wks. (1880) 24 For to meyntene goddis lawe and stond for his worschipe. 1567 Gude & Godlie B. (S.T.S.) 142 For Christis word se Še stand for it. 1593 R. Bancroft Dang. Posit. iv. xiv. 179 Certaine+men+would shortly take vpon them the defence of the cause, which he and his brethren in prison stood-for. 1642 Prince Rupert his Declaration 6 The Lord prosper the worke of their hands who stand for God and King Charles. 1711 Addison Spect. No. 34 310 Every Man at first stood hard for his Friend. 1842 Browning Cavalier Tunes i. i, Kentish Sir Byng stood for his King. 1847 Tennyson Princess v. 169, I beheld her, when she rose+and storming in extremes, Stood for her cause.
12. a. To appear as a candidate, to offer oneself as a candidate. Const. for (a post, office, †university degree); †to be (an office-holder); against (a rival candidate). †In early use to stand for the election (of), to stand in election (for), stand to be elected; also to stand candidate.
1551 Robinson tr. More's Utopia ii. iii. (1895) 136 Owte of the .iiii. quarters of the citie there be .iiii. chosen+to stande for the election. 1562 in W. H. Turner Select. Rec. Oxford (1880) 291 The two fyrste persons+shall stonde+for the eleccyon of the Mayer. 1607 Shakes. Cor. ii. i. 248 Were he to stand for Consull. Ibid. ii. ii. 2 How many stand for Consulships? 1631 Weever Anc. Funeral Mon. 540 Who stood in election for the Popedome. a1635 Naunton Fragm. Reg. (Arb.) 54 None durst appear to stand for the place. 1674 Wood Life (O.H.S.) II. 279 Thomas Thyn chose burgher for Oxon.+ Sir Ch. Wren stood against him. Ibid. Sir Georg Croke stood but he had very few votes. 1678 Walton Life Sanderson b1b, In the year 1614. he stood to be elected one of the Proctors.+ They perswaded him, that if he would but stand for Proctor,+he would infallibly carry it against any Opposers. 1690 Locke 3rd Let. Toleration i. (1692) 25 Had you stood to be Constable of your Parish. 1705 Hearne Collect. 6 Oct. (O.H.S.) I. 52 Mr. Ellison stands Candidate for Fellow. Ibid. 17 Nov. 85 Dr. Hudson stood to be Library-Keeper. 1709 Ibid. 27 Oct. II. 293 [He] stood for ye Degree of Master of Arts. 1720 Ozell Vertot's Rom. Rep. II. xiii. 278 Those that stood Candidates brought their money openly to the Place of Election. 1803 Gradus ad Cantabr. 131 To stand for an honour. 1879 Froude Cæsar iv. 39 Marius began to be spoken of as a possible candidate. Marius consented to stand. 1890 Blackw. Mag. CXLVIII. 589/2 He did not stand for a fellowship.
3. a. Of a horse: To be kept in a stable or stall. Phr. to stand at livery (see livery 1c and fig.).
1465 Paston Lett. II. 254 As touching a stabil, Sir John Sparham and I have gote yow on ther your hors stode the last tyme ye were in this town. 1482 Cely Papers (Camden) 122 Lette hym [a horse] ron in a parke tyll Hallowtyd and then take hym wpe and ser hym and lette hym stand in the dede of whyntter. 1538 Elyot Dict., Stabulo, to stande as cattayle dothe in a stable. 1577 Googe Heresbach's Husb. 120 Laying fresh litter, so as they stand hard. 1607 Topsell Four-f. Beasts 374 Bring him into the stable, and ther let him stand on the bit+the space of two houres. 1676 Lond. Gaz. No. 1072/4 Gentlemens Accompts, for Horses standing in the Kings Head near Charing-cross. 1828 Darvill Race Horse I. x. 240 The race-course, at Richmond+is the most convenient for horses which stand in the town to sweat over. 1892 Field 2 April 469/3 A horse standing at livery would always have the best of food.
b. Of a stallion: to be available as a stud-horse to serve mares (esp. at a certain place). Also, to stand at stud (cf. stud n.2). orig. U.S.
1766 Virginia Gaz. 4 Apr. 3/3 Merry Tom Stands at my house, and covers mares at a guinea the leap. 1788 W. Lenoir in N. E. Eliason Tarheel Talk (1956) 297 Whirligig will stand this season+& will cover Mares at Forty Shillings per season Twenty Shillings per cover. 1846 Spirit of Times 18 Apr. 94/1 Young Dread will stand this season at Watertown, Jefferson County, N.Y. 1891 J. L. Kipling Beast & Man in India viii. 207 Importing English thoroughbreds, Arabs, and Norfolk trotters who stand as sires at the service of farmers. 1959 Times 31 Aug. 13/5 (heading) Shantung to stand in England. 1974 D. Francis Knock Down xiv. 171 Nestegg is standing at stud in Ireland. 1974 New Yorker 29 Apr. 102/2 Go Man Go stands at stud at Buena Suerte Ranch. Ibid. 102/3 Tony B Deck's father, who stood in Perry, Oklahoma, was murdered in his stall. 1977 N.Z. Herald 5 Jan. 1–12/5 Aristoi is by Sir Gaylord from Attlea, by Mt Trouble from Athenia, by Pharamond II, and stands at the Preston Farm Stud.
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old hand
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Dr. Bill suspects the phrase is older than elections.Based on tsuwm's citations, I think you'll have to stand corrected... 
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." c1380 Wyclif Wks."
Dear Fiberbabe: I will stand for correction when deserved. But, answer me, what elections were held in 1380?
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what elections were held in 1380?
In LA, parbly none. But in London they were getting ready to have a big stir about who was common enough to be in the House of Commons. Fella named Way Tyler got turned into a pincushion a year later because he thought he was common enough. The King disagreed. Plenty of people were common enough and stood for election.
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I looked in Encyclopedia, but could not find when elections as we understand them began. But the citation below suggests that in the early days, candidates for Commons were chosen by the barons.
The barons' leader, Simon de Montfort, summoned representatives of towns to Parliament for the first time in 1265. The so-called Model Parliament of Edward I (1295) contained all the elements of a mature Parliament: bishops and abbots, peers, two knights from each shire, and two representatives from each town.
"Parliament, British," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
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could not find when elections as we understand them began
Now that you mention it, tsuwm's 1380 citation has nothing to do with elections anyway. His 1551 one does.
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Thanks, Faldage. Your eyes are sharper than mine.
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Your eyes are sharper than mine
My copy of the OED has a little drawer on top with a magnifying glass in it.
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I have four hand held magnifying lenses, a six inch magnifying lense surrounded by a fluorescent bulb, and the best prescription reading glasses I could buy, but my beginning cataracts and macular degeneration defeat them. May your magnifiers never disappoint you. Best wishes, Bill
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