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As my comparative anthropology professor likes to remind me (although I'm not sure I necessarily agree)...
"Sex" is based on physical characteristics, while "gender" is a social construct based on the characteristic social roles of each sex.
And if anyone takes "Sex is based on physical characteristics" out of context....
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> Does anyone know of a list (or can we compile one between us) of languages which use the 2nd person plural as a polite form for the singular.
Almost all the Indian languages will go into the list. Bengali (or Bangla) has only 2nd person plural and no familiar form for the Singular. Hindi/Urdu has three levels :
- the 2nd person plural as a polite form (aap)
- a part polite- part familiar form, distinct from the 2nd person plural (Tum)
- a familiar form (Tu)
This reminds me of lines from a Ghazal by the Pakistani singer Mehdi Hassan. The translation :
As love passed all limits, all ceremony we overcame
First 'aap' then 'tum', and then worthy of 'Tu' became.
For those who know the language this is the original:
Pyaar jab hud se badhha, saare takalluf mit gaye
'Aap' se phir 'tum' huye, phir 'tu' ka unwan ho gaye.
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Avy, thanks for that post and the poem. I find it interesting that a wide range of languages have this trait of using the 2nd person plural as the polite form of the singular. A couple of follow up questions, if I may: Do these languages have a word for using the familiar form as French does (tutoyer)? When and how did English lose the 2nd person singular? Was it through using the plural as a polite form and the English being over polite?  . Like the story of the two Englishmen travelling on a train for days in India and not speaking to each other because they hadn't been introduced. Rod
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No Rod, there is no word for familiarity arising from the word tu (I think that is what you mean). There are other words for familiarity.
>I find it interesting that a wide range of languages have this trait of using the 2nd person plural as the polite form of the third person singular.
Indian languages also have third person plural used as a polite form for third person singular. Does that happen in French too?
> When and how did English lose the 2nd person singular?
I thought thee thou was dropped because it was thought too polite?
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Carpal Tunnel
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When and how did English lose the 2nd person singular?
Bunch of Revolutionaries, that's us Americans!
All men (and women) created equal ....
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there is no word for familiarity arising from the word tu (in Malay)
French has the verbs (and nouns from them) tutoyer and vouvoyer which mean using the familiar and polite forms of "you". So children might be instructed to "vouvoyer" a distant uncle, or acquaintances might agree they have known each other long enough to "tutoyer" each other.
I will have to look at my reference books to see if any other languages in my pile have a third person polite form. I am fairly sure French doesn't (which is where someone pops up with an obscure french dialect and proves me wrong).
The other point of interest is the common use of the word "tu" for "you" in Malay and French (and other languages in variation). Is this an example of an "early" word surviving all this time?
Rod
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Another aspect which has always interested me is that certain (basic) words begin with the same sounds in Hindi/Urdu and English perhaps other languages too. For example the word for Sun is Suraj/ Surya in my language - something about the sound "S" that fits the characteristics of a sun? The word for Door is Darvaza, perhaps "D" is a nice solid door-like sound. There are other words too - but maybe this is just a coincidence.
I have not been able to find the equivilant of "tutoyer" in Hindi. I think children are told "Don't say tu say Aap!" But I will keep looking - there must be a word.
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In reply to:
When and how did English lose the 2nd person singular?
As to how, it just stopped being used, replaced by the plural, except that the nominative "Ye" was replaced by "You". As to when, it happened in the first half of the 17th century in England. It was still in regular use at the time the King James Version of the Bible was produced (1611), but you have to bear in mind that that work was produced by mature men who, presumably, spoke and wrote the language they learned in the last quarter of the 16th century. But by the 1620's, you find it being used less, and by the Restoration period (1660's), it's not being used regularly except for poetical and liturgical purposes. In fact, you can track the process to some degree in the work of a single author, John Donne, in his poems, letters and sermons. (By the time he died, 1630, he was not using the singular regularly, although he did in his early works.)
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Carpal Tunnel
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When and how did English lose the 2nd person singular?
There was a transition period during which both were used. The 2nd plural was used when speaking up to someone, i.e., a peasant to a lord. The 2nd singular was used when speaking down or with people with whom one was intimate. A careful reading of Shakespeare plays will show that this is pretty much the way he depicted people speaking.
It is my guess that this was rooted in the desire to aggrandize the upper levels of society. The point at which you switched from 2nd singular to 2nd plural gradually rolled downhill until everyone became the recipient of the 2nd plural.
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" the nominative "Ye" was "
A point of information, please: Was the "Y" actually a "thorn" or not" ? Was "Ye" pronounced "Thee"?
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