|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
In German handwriting, the umlaut was an "e" above the vowel, the "e" being two short close vertical lines just like the regular written "e", but much smaller. When the type for umlaut is not available, a clumsy althernative is "ae" etc.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
inselpeter contends: On the matter of the three additional vowels, in fact they are, of course, diphthongs
This is not quite true as *I understand it. They are vowels unto themselves. The fact that descriptions to English speakers of the production of them involves reference to two different vowels is irrelevant. The ä is, in normal speech, indistinguishable from the e. The ö is pronounced with the lips formed as to pronounce an o but with the tongue in more of an e position. The ü is pronounced with the lips forming a u but the tongue trying to say i.
As for pure vowels vs. diphthongs, this is a matter that varies from language to language. Speaking also as a singer, I'll say that one of the more difficult tasks of an amateur choral director is that of getting singers to sing pure vowels when singing in a language such as Church Latin that has the pure vowels. Another difficult task is to get the singers to change the vowel sound in diphthongs at the right place.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
From researching the discussions and articles I've found on the subject there seems to be a consensus that the TH spelling in German was dropped at the turn of the century. Although one source seemed to place the change just after WWII (but I think that's erroneous). As NicholasW pointed out, there never was a TH sound in the German language and no one seems to know why Old German used that spelling (I'm curious for the answer!)
The only word spelled with a TH in german today is THRONE (why? I don't know, it wasn't indicated). Of course this change has affected other well-known German words such as THALER/TALER, the monetary term which gave rise to our "dollar." However, it is also indicated that many Germans have ignored this rule change and continue with the TH today...in fact, The Neanderthal Museum there still uses the "H" and also in their URL: www.neanderthal.com (although I tried this and came up with a dead page?) So while technically the H is gone its usage remains a matter of choice. I wonder if purists are requiring Germans named Thomas to become Tomas?
And, by the way, if this revision back to the hard T (or "D"...two letters interchangeable in spoken-German) would carry over into English it would be no problem for me...having grown up in North-Central New Jersey I tend to harden my TH's anyway whenever dose kinds of words dat take de change show up dere in my speech!...I know I mispronounce dem but I can't help it. (South Jersey natives have their own dialect, though, called "Piney", after the Pine Barrens...a sort of localized Southern twang).
Another question: Why do Celtic dialectics tend to harden the TH in English? i.e. Irish..."Ting" for "Thing"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
I suspected the term "umlaut" would trigger some reaction and speculation. As I mentioned I studied German, and
so "umlaut" as the term for that pronuciation mark is the easiest and most identifiable for me (and for many other folks it seems). But is it proper? No. I also studied linguistics in college and there is an internationally accepted phonetic alphabet where each of these punctuation marks has a specific name to prevent confusion. But that was a while ago...and I can never remember those off the top of my head. I guess I should dig out the old text and refresh, it would be helpful on this site. But "umlaut" is just a convenient, lazier way for identifying the mark...but, on the other hand, it works. I don't think if I used the proper terminology people would know what I was talking about. One of the other terms mentioned might be the accurate one, I'm just not sure...back to the books for me!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
The only word spelled with a TH in german today is THRONE
Just on the Home page of German Yahoo, I found three words with "th": Bibliotheken,Theater, and Themen.But the "h" would be silent.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Interesting, wwh...My source for the "Throne" information is " KANSAS-L digest 1800," the second hit on the Google search. I quote: > "There is one word in German that retains the "th" sound and that is the word "Throne". This is because Kaiser Wilhelm II decreed in the early part of the last [19th] century that the "h" sound in "th" would be removed in all words except "throne." >>So that is how Neanderthal became Neandertal. >Don't ask me how it took so long for other people than Germans to use it that way. >>"Throne" retains the spelling, but not the sound, Fred. Standard German doesn't have the English "th" sound at all, and never did. The German orthographic reform of 1904 wasn't really all that successful, either, even in Germany. Today, almost 100 years later, Deutschmarken can still be made there by selling computer programs which have the single purpose of catching uses of "old spelling." In fact, the URL of the Neanderthal Museum in Germany is itself www.neanderthal.com. I'm not sure the Austrians and Swiss have ever adopted that particular decreed change. Only in France does it seem possible to dictate spelling rules with any confidence they will be followed. Of course, the Kaiser was the son of Queen Victoria's first child, Vicky (also Victoria), and is reputed to have spoken much better English than his cousin George V of England. That might have something to do with his desire to "anglicize" German spellings. That's what my German professor thought, and we were marked down in his class for using "new" spellings." Unquote. (This is the best capsule explanation for all of this I've found) So, evidently, there is a huge ambivalence in Germany, itself, about this...perhaps the editors of the site you quoted are adherents of the old spelling, ignoring the decree? If anyone wants to confirm this source here is the URL (if it fits): http://www.ukans.edu/~medieval/kansas-1/2000/20000901/msg00024.html
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Inselpeter contends: On the matter of the three additional vowels, in fact they are, of course, diphthongs. This is not quite true as *I understand it. Right. I need to hold my posts until after my morning coffee. [audible sighs of relief emoticon] Pronouncing the letters in question with eight or ten cups behind me now, I form no diphthong. 
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,352
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
1 members (wofahulicodoc),
494
guests, and
0
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
