|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
A word related, at least in people's minds, is "hocus-pocus", which is a corruption of the words used in the Latin mass at the consecration of the Host, "Hoc est corpus meus."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
<<"Hoc est corpus meus.">>
For the benefit of those of us who never attended church or grammar school?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
<<I'll look it up and supply details.>>
Do! :-{| )
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
This is my body. Reported to have been said by Jesus bar Joseph at his last meal with his followers. Taken by some to be literal truth and by others to be metaphor.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Faldage's reply
Yes, translation correct. This supposedly became a conjuration or part of a charm with medieval "magicians" because these were words of power. According to Roman Catholic teaching, at the moment a duly-ordained priest utters these words during the Mass, having the Host (a special large-sized communion wafer, or other piece of bread) in his hands, the bread is changed from a mere piece of bread to the actual and true body of Jesus Christ. There are regulations as to how this part of the Mass is to be performed; e.g., it is required that the words be spoken all in one breath.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Thanks. :)
Jesus bar Joseph
And there's some Aramaic for you.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
it is required that the words be spoken all in one breath.
Guess: more influence of Semitic language. The Hebrew, "ruach" means wind, breath, or spirit. This is another word from the first (second?) verse of Genesis: "v'ruach elokim m'rachepet al p'ne hatachom" "and the spirit of God hovered on the face of the abyss." This could also be translated as the breath of God. And when God breaths the breath of life into Adam (Hebrew for earth*), it is the spirit of life with which He imbues him. "Ruach HaKodesh" is "holy spirit," from which "Holy Ghost" no doubt originates. (This is particularly apt in German, in which both "ghost" and "spirit" are "Geist." I imagine there is a connection between that German and the English "ghost.") To interrupt the breath in the midst of the incantation delivering "breath" to the wafer would be to profane the incantation: to render it unholy (not in an especially perjorative meaning) and incapable of it's agency in the, how do you call it(?) transmutation(?).
*This has bearing on the apparition of the Golem in the anthromorph thread a little while ago.
What do you think?
Disclaimer: I know theological topics raise the hackles of certain posters. Dig not too very deeply here, and will find not the whisp of a hidden evangelist. I find theology interesting and consider it to be completely entwined with the study of language.
IP
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
<all in one breath>
What you say is, as far as I know, correct and interesting, but I don't think it's what was behind the rule. I believe it was more simple and practical -- to ensure that the change from bread to mystical flesh actually took place. Interrupting the words which effected this change might interrupt the transsubstantiation (the technical term for what occurred). It's like the rule which required (now relaxed) that the bread be placed by the priest directly into the mouth of the communicant. They were afraid that if they put it in the hand so the communicant could put it in his own mouth, some might not eat it, but take it away to use as a charm or for some other impious purpose. There is probably something about this in the writings of St. Thomas Acquinas, who practically invented the doctrine of transubstantiation, but nothing could induce me to drag through that again.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
<<to ensure that the change from bread to mystical flesh actually took place>>
<<ensure>> Could you elucidate? Why would the transsubstantiation not take place if the priest paused?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
[how do you call it(?) transmutation(?).i]
Transubstantiation : in Roman Catholic faith, the changing of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ only the appearance of the bread and wine remaining.
The OED says changing of one substance into another.
wow
Curses! BobY got it in before I could show off!
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,337
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
1 members (A C Bowden),
680
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
