|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
If I stumble on 'the Truth' I'll clear that up for you CK.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Thanks all, public and private. In a way, though, perhaps I am also getting at something more than just the preposition thing, though my argument was mainly linguistical. My reply to Shoshannah:
Thanks for sparing us a long screed – by reducing it to just personal bitching, I suspect you kept the main points of your argument.
What interests me about many of your posts is your readiness to leap to assumptions. You are actually unlikely to find many people in this world who care more passionately about rules than do I – but I prefer rules that are negotiated openly between rational human beings, not handed down as second- or third-hand mantra. I have a pretty good ‘grip’, and a key part of that is keeping in mind the thoughts of Cromwell, beseeching another group of ‘educated, intuitive and intelligent’ people to just consider the possibility that they are wrong. Maintaining that core of humility underpins rationality. I believe your approach is fundamentally irrational, which is why I find your spoutings so disagreeable.
I cannot know your circumstances, as you cannot know mine, which is why I gave my use of ‘real life’ a heavy dose of irony by use of SelloType™. But your arrogant assumption that people being killed (for reasons that I would suggest have a lot to do with just such a failure to negotiate as described) around you gives you some sort of special insight into “TRUTH” is deeply sad. From such closed minds, blood flows as it has throughout mankind’s history.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Shoshannah notes: So perhaps, after all, SHALL is the stronger of the two?
This is, of course, from an early Modern English translation and in no way reflects any Hebrew language conventions which would be irrelevant anyway. Those who use such words as shall, will and should in a context in which it is critical that they be understood as intended by the writer are well advised to make the meaning clear in the introduction or foreword to the document in which the terms are being used. In technical manuals this is usually accomplished by such statements as:
In this document when the word SHALL is used in all caps and bold print it means that failure to follow the directions can cause severe damage to equipment and personnel. When the word SHOULD is used it means that minor errors could cause improper functioning of the equipment. Whether the improper functioning will cause collateral damage is dependent on external circumstances, e.g., failure of a program to operate properly in a device that is controlling the manufacture of ice cubes may result in failure to produce ice cubes; failure of a program to operate properly in a device that is cooling a nuclear reactor may cause meltdown of the reactor and significant damage to neighboring communities.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
I must precede my discussion of legal definitions of shall, must, will, should and may with the caveat that common use of these terms can differ from legal use, the efforts of the Plain English in the Law movement notwithstanding. These definitions are based on American law, which, except for Louisiana, is based on the English common law, and thus I suspect that usages are similar in many other English language legal systems.
Shall = has a duty to
Must = (no legal definition, so the lay definition applies) = used to express an imperative
Will = (no legal definition other than that pertaining to the document used to dispose of a decedent’s estate, so a lay definition) = expected or required to
Should = (lay again) = pt of shall, indicative of duty, propriety or expediency
May = is permitted to
In drafting contracts or statutes, "shall" is often used to impose a mandatory duty, but the use of "shall" is in large part attributable to the inertia of legal writing (some of the statutes still in effect were initially drafted over 100 years ago). I use "must" instead. It also conveys imperative, but at least in the US is the more modern and common term, and thus far has not caused confusion over its meaning like "shall" occasionally does. Sometimes, the Legislature will confuse "shall" and "may," or "and" and "or," making interpretation more of an art than a science.
I agree with prior posters that "shall" clearly means an imperative when spoken by one as a command to another, but conveys a meaning closer to expectation when spoken about oneself. In contracts or statutes, of course, only the command nuance arises.
Per Webster’s, the traditional rule says that future time is indicated by "shall" in the first person and "will" in the other persons, and that determination is expressed by "will" in the first person and "shall" in other persons. Webster’s and the Gregg Reference Manual both say that "shall" has largely given way to "will" in all but the most formal writing and speech, and that "should" and "would" similarly have formal and informal distinctions and follow the same rules in expressions of future time, determination, and willingness.
Well, I could go on, but I will not, as there are things I must do and I should get back to work.
I shall return.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
Shoshannah, while I found your outburst very disturbing, egregious almost, I will respond by simply pointing out that mav's comments about the rules were made specifically, and exclusively, in regard to rules of language. The extrapolation you made to rules in general was both unwarranted and off-topic. It is very easy for someone to hold rules of grammar in low esteem while still living by other rules. I happen to think that mav's original post could well have been couched more diplomatically, and that its tenor was somewhat confrontational. I think that such an approach is unfortunate and not in the best interests of this Board, and it is my concern for the Board that has moved me to post this publicly, loathe though I was to do so.
This Board as thrived as a community of people with widely, nay hugely, disparate views on almost any subject imaginable. In my opinion, it has thrived because those views have always been expressed calmly, quietly, and with civility, often even with humour. When those differing views begin to be expressed with rancour, aggression, and personal hostility, the unique spirit of AWADtalk comes under threat. I do not ask, nor do I wish, that everyone agree on everything, or even keep quiet about everything they don't agree on, I simply beseech all to maintain the remarkable history of tolerance and civility this Board has established. I also recognise that every person who reads this has the absolute right to think of me, and this post, whatever they will. To all I extend my sincere wish that you may be at peace.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Well, see, there you have it.
Thank you, Sparteye.
Umm, I've already forgotten the rule.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
thank you, max. your post - together with your eloquent birthday sentiments - summed my own feelings in a way that i could never have expressed so clearly.
nobody loves a good argument more than me, provided it's done with exceeding respect by all involved parties. some of these posts are making me feel uncomfortable, and it can't be much fun for the posters, either.
would it be hopelessly naive of me to suggest that we all start with clean slates, in honor of AWAD's birthday, and more importantly so that we don't tarnish this wonderful forum that Anu has given us, which so many of us hold dear?
sophomorically yours,
B96
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Bridget96 suggests : we all start with clean slates, in honor of AWAD's birthday
Hear! Hear! Bridget96.
Having peeked in on several chat/board sites before I found AWAD I am particularly aware of the decency and civility of AWADtalk. Long may it endure.
wow
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Sparteye
Subject: Re: Shall/must/will/should/may
Thank you Sparteye.
definitions are based on American law ... except for Louisiana,
One more question : is the Louisiana law based on the Napoleonic Code ?
wow
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
I used to erase blackboards, but haven't seen an eraser for a long time. It used to be fun to let my fingernails overlap the felt just enough so that they made a real screech. The teacher was as deaf as I am now, and kept wondering why the girls were jumping so, until one of them squealed on me. I got excused from further blackboard duty.
How do I clean my slate now? The moving finger keeps writing.......
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,330
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
1,577
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
