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Has anyone else noticed that each language has it's own musicality? Rhythm if you will? Atomica defines what I mean very well : The patterned, recurring alternations of contrasting elements of sound or speech. Lyricists take language into account and I have noticed that the words are placed so the notes make it easier to sing them, especially "open" words on high or difficult notes. For example "Dein Ist Mein Ganzes Herz" by Franz Lehar, words by Ludwig Herzer and Fritz Lohner. That title phrase is MUCH easier to sing in German than it is in the English translation : "Yours Is My Heart Alone." (English translation of lyric by Harry B. Smith who got the sense of the lyric but made it harder to sing!) There are others, but that one leaps to mind as a real jaw breaker since I sang it in German then reprised it in English for the sake of the audience! Any singers among us who perhaps have had similar problems with American or English lyrics translated into another language? wow Let's see if I can do this without notes.  Key 2 sharps. Tempo C D- halfnote+dot)----Dein C D (8ths)----------Ist C B (8ths)----------Mein Ganzes A (quarter + 8th).-Hertz Standard EGBDF lines and FACE spaces.
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I don't sing, but I have noticed that songs and poetry sound better in the language they were written in. "To grandmother's house we go" is, in spanish, " A la casa de abuela de nosotros nosotros vamos".Notice that "we" must be repeated.
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In another thread, someone suggested that music is a universal language.While it may have universal appeal, no two hearers get exactly the same message.
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A la casa de abuela de nosotros nosotros vamos
Wha' hoppen, compadre? Did Spanish lose the possessive pronoun nuestra while I had my back turned? And did the verb suddenly demand the subject? And now that I think more on it, do you now have to identify whose grandma in Spanish, whereas you don't in English?
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I yield. Usted must know more spanish than I do. My other post is an improvement over what I originally thought, at least.
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Interesting but how about : The patterned, recurring alternations of contrasting elements of sound or speech
side of the post?
For example by listening to French speakers talking in English I noted that the rhythms of the sentences was different.
By mimicing the alteration of the rhythm of English by French speakers I greatly improved my accent when singing or speaking in French. (Hope that is clear ! ? !)
Comments?
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Speaking of rhythms, has anyone else noticed that jazz is iambic?
edit: now that I think about it, since there are so many varieties of jazz I should specify. Swing is iambic.
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In reply to:
Swing is iambic.
Most blues is, too, and of the pentameter variety. 
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One of the problems with English for speakers of other languages is that English is a stress-timed language while most languages are syllable-timed. What this means is that in a typical English sentence the stressed syllables come at roughly equal intervals and everything else is squidged in as best as may be, while most other languages are syllable-timed, each syllable gets an equal amount of time, hence their rat-tat-tat sound to English speakers.
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English is a stress-timed language
Is this a ghostly remnant of the OE pattern, with verse construction based on stressed lines without much regard for number of syllables? If so, why is it not true of other Germanic PIE languages?
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I find that Turkish is a very smooth language to listen to. The ups aren't as high and the downs aren't as low. The consonants are less harsh. So when my Turkish friends swear in English - and all the English swears depend on their harshness for effect (e. g. SHIT! F***!) - they sound really funny spoken with Turkish "softness" of the consonants! 
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The musicality of language may also have nothing to do with music per se.
In formal English, the rhythm patterns formed by the words, and intonation, or the rise and fall in pitch by the speaker, as well as the speed and volume, and the deliberate use of silence for contrast, all can be as complicated as a Bach work.
I once coached a young man who was competing in an oratorical contest. His main opponent, we knew, was another youngster who had a very dramatic declamatory style. My man tended to a quieter, more elegiac delivery, which we were afraid would be swamped by comparison with the other young man. I decided he needed to pump up his delivery and to help him do that, we took his script and marked it up, using musical notations like the < and > signs for crescendo and decrescendo, also lines and arrows to indicate rises in pitch, etc. He won.
Poetry is, of course, more musical than prose, although prose like Thomas Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer is hard to beat. Among my favorite poems are Baudelaire's Harmonie du Soir and the Petrarch sonnet which begins, "Di monte in monte, di pensier in pensier". If that's not music, I don't know what is. And language like that has to be read out loud to be appreciated.
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I have found that the iambic pentameter to be rat-a-tat (by eastern standards). Eastern languages (of the sub continent) are fluid. And often while speaking the English language I look for that kind of fluidity. And find myself creating it in my speaking of English. Sometimes it ends up being grammatically incorrect. (Like for example I was pulled up by a friend for using "that which" as tautology. But I needed an extra word in my sentence to fill up a space.) I guess that is how the language becomes varied because foreign speakers of the language change it to fill in prescriptions that exist in their own language.
Also a question :
If a pentameter is made up of five metrical feet, what is a line made up of 5 ½ feet - i.e 11 beats called? There must be a name because didn't the original Petrarchan sonnet have 11 beats?
And what is the scansion of a 11 syllable line of a Petrarchan sonnet? Thanks.
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OK - I've waited long enough...  WOW - "Has anyone else noticed that each language has it's own musicality? Rhythm if you will? - You bet! Aligning lyrics to music, just one of my favourite endeavors, is filled with the discovery of what is musical about language - both rhythmically and melodically. (Of course this says nothing about the effect of music on meaning after doing so!)"Any singers among us who perhaps have had similar problems with American or English lyrics translated into another language?" - I have very little experience with translating from English, however, translating to English always leaves certain 'holes' for which there is no word(s) to 'fill'. I would imagine it is the same the other way around. In performance, as well as analysis, music seems to be dictating (to a certain degree) how successful a language communicates through it as well as each language seemingly dictating (to a certain degree) what music will be best at not obfuscating its intent. (ps. I assume by "Tempo C" you mean 'common time' or 4/4 (ie. "Time Signature")"...no two hearers get exactly the same message" I'll save this one for another time There is no doubt that composers work within a certain "sonic comfort" which their "mother tongue" has embedded into the way they hear (and listen). This is one of the obvious ways language exposes its own musicality. Actually (tsuwm-registered trademark), there is nothing obvious about it... except most people I know who know very little about music theory, per se, will guess correctly the "nationality of a composition"; just as they can do with the "nationality of a language", yet not understand a word of it. In formal English, the rhythm patterns formed by the words, and intonation, or the rise and fall in pitch by the speaker, as well as the speed and volume, and the deliberate use of silence for contrast, all can be as complicated as a Bach work. - I'll do my best to leave Bach's "supposed complexities" out of this (for personal reasons)... I agree completely with your post, especially when it comes to the intentional use of silence (one of the key ingredients to communication). I mark up my poetry/prose for accurate performance, just as I would a musical score, and it does make a big difference!"And what is the scansion of a 11 syllable line of a Petrarchan sonnet?..." - I guess I don't have a direct answer to your question... but from my experience... when rhythmic structures become large enough (ie. span a significant length) they naturally become a combination of smaller structures... "naturally" of course meaning "functionally" in this context, whereas, in a context of meaning, longer structures will be required to be successful.[heavy breathing end of rant emoticon]
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Musick, I've been wondering where you've been!
A lovely post, Sweetie--it didn't sound like a rant at all.
I agree with your statements about translation problems, and as has been discussed at length before, the same difficulties occur when poetry is translated. (Also prose,
but I think to a lesser extent because there is more leeway.)
"Sonic comfort"--what a neat term. I was aware of the concept (Tchaikovsky's music most definitely reflects the
"tone" of Mother Russia!), but had not known to name it.
Question--a rest (silence; pause) in music is easy to indicate. How do you do that in a poem, please? Perhaps Avy of the lovely anniversary poem can give some hints on that technique.
One last thing--Bingley, I am once again in awe of your mighty command of language. I had been unconsciously aware, but never named the fact that English is "a stress-timed language". Thank you.
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Because I am ignorant of opera, I was amused a long time ago to read an essay with the epigram "When music was married to immortal verse, she committed a horrible mesalliance." (Being written in my bomb shelter.) One experience I had with opera records still surprises me. Back in the thirties sets of symphonic records were subsidized by a music lovers'group. I got a dozen wonderful symphonies that way,though it meant skipping meals. I also got Bizet's "Carmen" but could not understand a single word even after a dozen playings. Until I could get the libretto, and after one reading, I could understand EVERY word. I can still remember "L'amour est un oiseau rebelle...." Oh, to have my hearing back.
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> Perhaps Avy of the lovely anniversary poem can give some hints on that technique.
Oh god Jackie don't do this to me.. I know nothing authoritative about technique. I am still reading and learning. (The truth not modesty) To try to answer your question my brain stretches as far as the comma. I don't know whether there is more to a pause in poetry than that. My book says there is the Ceasura which is a pause roughly in the middle of a sentence.
>but could not understand a single word even after a dozen playings.
That used to happen to me when I read Urdu poetry. Some words are similar to Hindi and are easily understood but others are very difficult.
Then I realised one can also enjoy words that one has no inkling as to what it means. Partly because it doesn't mean anything - it can mean anything. And also unhampered by its meaning one can concentrate on the physicality of the word. For a while .. then you just switch it off.
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"Question--a rest (silence; pause) in music is easy to indicate. How do you do that in a poem, please? Perhaps Avy of the lovely anniversary poem can give some hints on that technique." - Personally I use a number of different scribblings... the same notation as music does (as I understand within my own perception of tempo (and the tempo of the "work") what that means) - or, like a screenplay, I'll (in parenthesis) write the words "wait two seconds" - or, skipping a line after a period. (this is clearly no paragon )
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(Tchaikovsky's music most definitely reflects the "tone" of Mother Russia!)
Tschaikovsky? Bah, humbug!!! Balakirev, da, Borodin, da, Mussorgsky, da, Glinka, da, Ippolitov-Ivanov, da, often Rimsky-Korsakov, even Prokofiev, but that Muscovite composer of Western music? NYET!!! I will say especially Mussorgsky, who made a deliberate attempt to imitate spoken language in his songs and operas.
The "Mighty Five," as they were sometimes called (Balakirev, Borodin, Cui, R-K and Mussorgsky) banded together to create a truly "Russian" music to counterpoise the Western European influences of that other guy.
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In reply to:
"L'amour est un oiseau rebelle...."
I remember the sniggers when I translated this for an Indonesian audience. Bird (burung) has the same anatomical reference in Indonesian as a particular bird does in English  .
Bingley
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The "Mighty Five," as they were sometimes called (Balakirev, Borodin, Cui, R-K and Mussorgsky) banded together to create a truly "Russian" music to counterpoise the Western European influences of that other guy.
Hey, careful there. I like the other guy. And, as far as I know, Tchaikovsky didn't claim any particular Russian-ness in his music. Of the others, IMHO, only Borodin is halfway listenable on the whole.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Hey, careful there. I like the other guy. And, as far as I know, Tchaikovsky didn't claim any particular Russian-ness in his music. Of the others, IMHO, only Borodin is halfway listenable on the whole.Truth to tell, CapK, I like Tchaikovsky too. However, I believe that Mussorgsky was brilliantly inventive, Borodin was T-sky's equal as a melodist, and R-K was a fine all-around composer. As for the other two, well, er, um, which half of what (w)hole were you thinking of? I do admire Mussorgsky for perceiving the connection between music and spoken language, and attempting to incorporate it into his paltry sum of musical work. That, of course, is the subject of this thread, so he ought to be celebrated here for his efforts.
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, I believe that Mussorgsky was brilliantly inventive,
Pictures is a work of genius. i'd be hardpressed to think of a piece that's more fun to play (well, except for chamber quintets, since there's nothing - absolutely nothing - on this earth that equals the pleasure of being such an integral part of the most beautiful music ever written.)
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PicturesI agree, bridget96 - his Chicken Kiev is a particularly appetising and aromatic delight 
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Since the discussion of music has continued, I will, too.
Tchaikovsky didn't claim any particular Russian-ness in his music.
Well, he did try to make it representative. I have read his diary several times, and he was often concerned with expressing the feeling of his culture in just the right way.
That rich, tenebrous, upsurging and swelling of unbearable longing, never, oh, never to be satiated by the final and lasting attainment of happiness...just eased for
brief moments here and there. Ahhh...
I really wonder what his compositions might have been like had he lived in the time of the Revolution.
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At the risk of sacrilege after such heart-felt poetry, oh Pooh-Bah, this reminded me of a little joke about revolutionary oratory.
The scene is a mass meeting of workers in a large factory, being addressed by the fire-brand leader of the Union. His speech holding out the promise of the view from the mountain top, sweeps towards its conclusion with the array of glittering prizes for the workers 'after the revolution'.
"After the revolution, you' ll all be driving Rolls Royces..."
A little voice pipes up from the back of the crowd:
"But I don't want to drive a Rolls Royce!"
The orator looks sternly over to the interruption, and snarls:
"After the revolution, you will drive a bloody Rolls Royce whether you want to or not!"
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"...Western European influences of that other guy."
Unfortunately, it is the exact reason why that other guy has enjoyed "success", and the others, well...
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revolutionary Rolls Royces
This reminds me of the story about the backwoods preacher who was going great guns preaching hellfire and brimstone, and how, in Hell, there will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. One old gaffer cried out, "Preacher, how about us-uns that ain't got no teeth?" Without missing a beat, the preacher replied, "Brother, teeth will be provided."
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>Question--a rest (silence; pause) in music is easy to indicate. How do you do that in a poem, please?
I've always felt that poets like cummings and Lawrence Ferlenghetti had a very good sense of how to accomplish that very thing...
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Ferlenghetti - sounds like an Italian motor car! Perhaps with a silent engine?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Because I am ignorant of opera, I was amused a long time ago to read an essay with the epigram "When music was married to immortal verse, she committed a horrible mesalliance.
With respect to these partners, opera may be less a marriage than a strained cohabitation. Still, it does have at least one happy, if neglected union of the two. I once studied a little of the first act recitative from Don Giovanni and was surprised to discover how lovely these simple bridges can be. While I might not pay to hear an entire evening of them, I've spent several pleasant hours beginning to understand what they are.
As to the different rhythms of languages, Wow, you might have fun comparing the German rendition of Dr. Bartolo's aria from The Marriage of Figaro with the Italian original. Seraphim has an old recording in German with Walter Berry, Hermann Prey, [Elizabeth Schwarzkopf], and Edith Mathis.
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A German friend, whose wife sang in various choirs back home in Germany, told me that the various foreign members of the choirs (I think he said Japanese but I may be wrong there) could sing in perfect unaccented German, but had very thick foreign accents whenever they were speaking. Has anyone had similar experiences with people singing in languages not their own?
Bingley
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A German friend, whose wife sang in various choirs back home in Germany, told me that the various foreign members of the choirs (I think he said Japanese but I may be wrong there) could sing in perfect unaccented German, but had very thick foreign accents whenever they were speaking. Has anyone had similar experiences with people singing in languages not their own?
I have a friend who sings in the Newfoundland Symphony Choir, or something like that, and apparently the director is always giving them hell for singing with a Newfie accent. What I gather from this is that speakers of some languages are better able to cross over than others.
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Just tossing this into the mix :
People who stutter when speaking can usually sing without any stutter at all.
There's an old joke about a stuttering sailor singing a message to the ship's Captain ....
Anyone able to dredge it up from memory?
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I don't know the joke wow, but your comment about stuttering relates back to the language acquisition and processing thread. Apparently, song lyrics are stored in or processed by the music center of the brain rather than the language center, permitting people like Mel Tillis to sing beautifully although they cannot utter three words in succession. I wonder whether poetry is similarly separated from general language processing. The tendency of early literature to be in poem suggests interesting possibilities regarding neurological development.
Speaking of which -- has anyone else read the fascinating The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind? (Or something like that ... speaking of the breakdown of minds)
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Accents in singing vs. in speaking
Au contraire, mon frère; my experience is the opposite. I sing in the choir at my church (a cathedral). They do fairly well with Latin, and not too bad with German, but last year we sang the Cantique de Jean Racine (in French) and even after I wrote out the words in phonetic fashion and went over them several times, the way it came out would make a cow laugh (as far as the pronunciation is concerned -- the musical effect was divine.)
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