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#206303 - 07/01/12 06:26 PM Re: grough and nonsense [Re: Faldage]  
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zmjezhd Offline
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R'lyeh
Must is some specialized linguistics definition of logic.

It's more of a philosophy of language thang. Russell, Frege, those logician guys ...


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#206309 - 07/02/12 05:10 PM Re: grough and nonsense [Re: zmjezhd]  
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When I write: The present King of France is bald, it is unlogical.

In the 9th century, a contempory of Charles the Bald could have said: "The present King of France is bald".

If I write a story about Charles II and his time and someone in the story says: - "The present King of France is bald"- how would the logician guys explain the difference 'logical-unlogical?


Last edited by BranShea; 07/02/12 09:32 PM.
#206310 - 07/02/12 05:41 PM Re: grough and nonsense [Re: BranShea]  
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If I write a story about Charles II and his time and someone in the story sais: - "The present King of France is bald"- how would the logician guys explain the difference 'logical-unlogical?

Well, if it's a story, instead of a history, they might say it meaningless. Not sure. Context is always important. I believe the problem goes away if France is a monarchy at the time of writing or uttering and the present King is bald.

I guess I posted my thread mainly because I've been thinking about how complicated language and communication are. I've never much been bothered by the "present King of France is bald" kind of paradox (enigma?), but there are / were people whose opinions I respect who are / were obsessed with it. And, my point about the "present King of France is bald" is that whatever its problem(s) may be, it has nothing to do with grammar. The sentence is perfectly grammatical. The problem may have to do with situational semantics or logic or pragmatics or who knows what.


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#206312 - 07/02/12 07:32 PM Re: grough and nonsense [Re: zmjezhd]  
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this too shall pass
The present King of France is bald

could it be, possibly, that this statement is simply false?

#206313 - 07/02/12 09:22 PM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: tsuwm]  
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could it be, possibly, that this statement is simply false?

It could be, but if you read the article I linked to you'll see why other people don't think so.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#206316 - 07/03/12 08:49 AM Re: groetsjemeu [Re: tsuwm]  
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Of course it false. False and mean. Some mistress must have looked under his crown while he was sleeping and she told all the court: "The present King of France is bald".

Even worse, who knows what was under the perruques and wigs of all those kings and authorities through the wiggily centuries. History has shown what was under their skull, not what was on it.

#206320 - 07/03/12 03:34 PM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: zmjezhd]  
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this too shall pass
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
could it be, possibly, that this statement is simply false?

It could be, but if you read the article I linked to you'll see why other people don't think so.


oh, I did; which seemed to [ahem] beg my question.

Last edited by tsuwm; 07/03/12 08:32 PM. Reason: typo
#206322 - 07/03/12 06:15 PM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: tsuwm]  
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R'lyeh
oh, I did

I see. The part that cinched it for me was that logical true statements / propositions can be negated to make them false. So, if "the present King of France is bald" is false, then the inverse statement "the current King of France is not bald" should be true. Do you find the former false and the latter true? I don't.


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#206323 - 07/03/12 07:16 PM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: zmjezhd]  
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Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
oh, I did

I see. The part that cinched it for me was that logical true statements / propositions can be negated to make them false. So, if "the present King of France is bald" is false, then the inverse statement "the current King of France is not bald" should be true. Do you find the former false and the latter true? I don't.





Or either the notion that the inverse must be true is itself false. And is "the current King of France is not bald" truly the inverse of "the current King of France is bald"? Remember, it's not the baldness of the current King of France that's true or false, it's the existence of the current King of France.

#206324 - 07/03/12 08:02 PM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: Faldage]  
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R'lyeh
Remember, it's not the baldness of the current King of France that's true or false, it's the existence of the current King of France.

I disagree. "the present King of France" is a definite description, like "the first man on the moon" or "the winner of the Kentucky Derby". These terms may or may not have referents but how are they true or false in the same sense as a statement / proposition such as "all humans are mortal"? But, mayhaps, true and false mean something else to you ...


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