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#206195 - 06/24/12 12:38 AM Re: Why our language is changing for the better [Re: BranShea]  
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Originally Posted By: BranShea


To Gooofy, of course it makes a difference whether a child from birth till school age is put in front of a television all day or is read bedtime and daytime books by its parents with all the fun and accompanying discussions.


Exactly what difference will it make? It might make the child a better critical thinker, and better at reading, but in terms of grammar as I define it, it won't make a difference (unless the child is isolated from contact with other humans from birth to school age).

Last edited by gooofy; 06/24/12 12:40 AM.
#206224 - 06/26/12 04:46 AM Re: Why our language is changing for the better [Re: gooofy]  
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olly Offline
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Exactly what difference will it make?

It should kindle an interest in reading books for a start. As far as grammar is concerned, it is easier to see punctuation marks and then get a gist of its use in context. Basic grammar that is.

Kids are reading less
I think the opposite. The internet is a great big magazine. It's what they're reading that's the problem. A lot of the younger ones are not to concerned with punctuation when it comes to social messaging.

#206226 - 06/26/12 02:49 PM Re: Why our language is changing for the better [Re: olly]  
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Originally Posted By: olly
Exactly what difference will it make?

It should kindle an interest in reading books for a start. As far as grammar is concerned, it is easier to see punctuation marks and then get a gist of its use in context. Basic grammar that is.


I agree that reading lots will help with punctuation. But that's not "grammar" as I define it. Knowledge of punctuation is a writing skill, it has nothing to do with our unconscious knowledge of how the language works, I think.

Last edited by gooofy; 06/26/12 03:01 PM.
#206227 - 06/26/12 03:06 PM Re: Why our language is changing for the better [Re: gooofy]  
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zmjezhd Offline
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I agree that reading lots will help with punctuation. But that's not "grammar" as I define it. Knowledge of punctuation is a writing skill, it has nothing to do with our unconscious knowledge of how the language works.

Right. Unwritten languages have grammar.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#206231 - 06/26/12 06:11 PM Re: Why our language is changing for the better [Re: zmjezhd]  
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"no idea, as to a teaching grammar; but just reading is a splendid guide. to wit,"

"Yeah, sure. As I said elsewhere, but will reiterate here: the onliest way to figure out that grammar thing is to read and write ... That is the descriptivist agenda."

Unwritten languages

Such as....?

#206232 - 06/26/12 07:38 PM Re: Why our language is changing for the better [Re: BranShea]  
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gooofy Offline
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Originally Posted By: BranShea

Such as....?


Most of them!

#206233 - 06/26/12 08:27 PM Re: Why our language is changing for the better [Re: gooofy]  
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Jajaja, dat kennen we. Die geintjes. grin

#206234 - 06/26/12 10:45 PM Re: Why our language is changing for the better [Re: gooofy]  
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olly Offline
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Knowledge of punctuation is a writing skill, it has nothing to do with our unconscious knowledge of how the language works, I think.

I agree. Punctuation is a tool of Grammar. Until relatively recently my fathers native tongue was only an oral language and in his later writings he would never use a macron because he and others who knew the language didn't need to know how to elongate an 'a'. They just knew. But today, for the purpose of new language learners, punctuation (in writing) is essential in creating good grammar and context for the unintiated.

#206244 - 06/27/12 08:48 AM Re: Why our language is changing for the better [Re: BranShea]  
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zmjezhd Offline
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R'lyeh
Unwritten languages

Such as....?

Well some languages are only unwritten for any of their speakers that are illiterate. Almost all of the thousands of native languages of the two Americas were unwritten at the time of European contact with them. In my neck of the woods, there was Miwok (both Coastal and Sierran), Wappo, Pomo, Ohlone, et al. There was a lot of work to transcribe these languages done in the second half of the 20th century as a way to preserve them.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#206247 - 06/27/12 09:26 AM Re: Why our language is changing for the better [Re: zmjezhd]  
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"Should I give up or should I just keep chasing pavements
Even if it leads nowhere or would it be a waste
Even if I knew my place should I leave it there
Should I give up or should I just keep chasing pavements
Even if it leads nowhere...."
Adele

I've read (not skimmed) the QES article. Mr, Geoffry Pullum repetedly associates 'grammar-ungrammatical' with punctuation and clause. Which is why I don't understand :

"agree that reading lots will help with punctuation. But that's not "grammar" as I define it. Knowledge of punctuation is a writing skill, it has nothing to do with our unconscious knowledge of how the language works, I think."

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