Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
#202638 - 09/27/11 11:17 AM Re: ritual pointer [Re: zmjezhd]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Faldage  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
I have a book comparing the Indo-European ans Semitic languages written by Professor Saul Levin.


I'd like to read that book. John McWhorter writes of a notion that Germanic strong verbs, verbs that represent tense with an ablaut series, derive from interaction with some unnamed Semitic language.

#202642 - 09/27/11 01:00 PM Re: ritual history [Re: Faldage]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel
zmjezhd  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
R'lyeh
John McWhorter writes of a notion that Germanic strong verbs, verbs that represent tense with an ablaut series, derive from interaction with some unnamed Semitic language.

He is a contrarian, ain't he? And where did the un-named Semitic language borrow it from? Germanic ablaut looks a lot like Indo-European ablaut in general, a lot of which happens through the language family. Where did Latin borrow it from? (cf. capio, cepi)?

But seriously, I think that the ablaut was phonological at first, and only later came to be re-analyzed as morphological (i.e., having to do with tense). It's the sort of thing that happens often enough cross-linguistically that it has a name: grammaticalization.

Last edited by zmjezhd; 09/27/11 01:04 PM.

Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#202649 - 09/28/11 02:40 AM Re: ritual pointer [Re: BranShea]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132
goofy Offline
member
goofy  Offline
member

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132
Originally Posted By: BranShea
Hey, surprise! Thisyad I think lives on in the dutch slang word 'jat' = hand. In informal speech they say: Keep your 'jatten' off it! = hands off! It is verbed to 'jatten' = nick, steal.


that would appear to be true

#202656 - 09/28/11 07:14 AM Re: ritual pointer [Re: goofy]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
BranShea Offline
Carpal Tunnel
BranShea  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Netherlands, the Hague
Thank you for the proof Goof!y

#202657 - 09/28/11 10:18 AM Re: ritual history [Re: zmjezhd]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Faldage  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
I believe McWhorter had a bunch of verbs that didn't have cognates in non-Germanic IE languages. They were all strong and matched Semitic roots. And my question about, e.g., capio, cepi would be whether those are examples of ablaut or umlaut. I don't know much of anything about proto-Latin to have any idea myself.

#202659 - 09/28/11 12:55 PM Re: ritual history [Re: Faldage]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel
zmjezhd  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
R'lyeh
I believe McWhorter had a bunch of verbs that didn't have cognates in non-Germanic IE languages. They were all strong and matched Semitic roots.

So, that means that Proto-Germanic came into contact with a Semitic language. Which one? And how did all those other IE languages get ablaut which most historical linguists trace back to PIE?

Basically, umlaut is the changing of a vowel because in a subsequent syllable there is an i. Ablaut had to do with the variation in vowels (such as that in Germanic strong verbs) caused by some other phonological process, e.g., the shifting of tone or stress (depending on when it happened).


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#202660 - 09/28/11 02:32 PM Re: ritual history [Re: zmjezhd]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132
goofy Offline
member
goofy  Offline
member

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132
McWhorter also suggests that "do" insertion and progressive "-ing" are borrowings from Celtic.

#202665 - 09/28/11 11:45 PM Re: ritual history [Re: goofy]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel
zmjezhd  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
R'lyeh
McWhorter also suggests that "do" insertion and progressive "-ing" are borrowings from Celtic.

Yeah, and I have questioned that, too, but it has its champions here-abouts, too.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#202669 - 09/29/11 10:17 AM Re: ritual history [Re: zmjezhd]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Faldage  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
I believe McWhorter had a bunch of verbs that didn't have cognates in non-Germanic IE languages. They were all strong and matched Semitic roots.

So, that means that Proto-Germanic came into contact with a Semitic language. Which one? And how did all those other IE languages get ablaut which most historical linguists trace back to PIE?

Basically, umlaut is the changing of a vowel because in a subsequent syllable there is an i. Ablaut had to do with the variation in vowels (such as that in Germanic strong verbs) caused by some other phonological process, e.g., the shifting of tone or stress (depending on when it happened).


Do other IE languages use ablaut to indicate verb tense? As to which Semitic language McWhorter suggests loaned Germanic verb-tense ablaut I think he had some ideas but didn't get too deeply in to it in his Bastard Language, which is where I learned about this idea of his. He did suggest that there was evidence from some other discipline of a candidate. He has not responded to my Fb friend request.

#202671 - 09/29/11 01:23 PM Re: ritual history [Re: Faldage]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel
zmjezhd  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
R'lyeh
Do other IE languages use ablaut to indicate verb tense?

It occurs in the verbal systems and has to do with tense, aspect, and changing of parts of speech-hood.

Semitic languages also tend not to have verbal tense, but use aspect instead. Just speculating that some unnamed and unknowable "Semitic" language had an effect on Proto-Germanic seems a bit silly to me. I've seen estimates that as much as one-third of the Germanic lexicon is non-Indo-European. The usual suspect for a sub-stratum language is "Old European" (Vennemann et al.), and another theory is that Germanic started as a pidgin, thence to Creole, and finally a language. The linguist, who came up with the term laryngeal, Hermann Möller also p[ublished a comparative dictionary of Semitic-PIE roots. It's probably up on Google Books at this point.

As for strong verbs: drive and bring seem to have PIE roots.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Jackie 

Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,879
Posts224,124
Members9,031
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
brork, santo, piostylist, prgill, thefoeller
9031 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (wofahulicodoc), 66 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters(All Time)
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
tsuwm 10,538
LukeJavan8 9,038
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2017 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.018s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 2.7329 MB (Peak: 2.8771 MB) Zlib disabled. Server Time: 2017-11-21 19:35:18 UTC