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Re: Pleonasm [Re: RonDavis] #194685
12/08/10 03:38 AM
12/08/10 03:38 AM
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Jackie Offline
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Oh, yes--Pookie! I believe he got lost to Facebook. I miss him, too.

Re: Pleonasm [Re: Jackie] #194686
12/08/10 04:03 AM
12/08/10 04:03 AM
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Land of the Flat Water
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How sad.


----please, draw me a sheep----
Re: ANAGRAMS IV [Re: LukeJavan8] #194715
12/09/10 11:14 AM
12/09/10 11:14 AM
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down under
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Originally Posted By: beck123 in anagrams IV
SCUBA


just catching up on the posts I missed and wanted to comment on this one...S.C.U.B.A (originally an acronym for Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus)...and so may be considered a 'pleonasm' when teamed with tanks as in 'scuba tanks'.

Re: Pleonasm and Missing [Re: Jackie] #194739
12/09/10 06:57 PM
12/09/10 06:57 PM
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SE US
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Jackie! Baybee!! smile


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Re: Pleonasm [Re: Faldage] #194741
12/09/10 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: Faldage
Hot water heater is not really a pleonasm. There can be heaters that heat other things than water. And heaters that heat water but do not produce hot water. Heat tape, e.g., is a water heater but all it does to the water is keep it from freezing.


Hey Fal cool
It is not the "water" part that is the problem in that. It would also sound lame but make more sense to say "hot water maker". Function is not the issue. A water cooler does not necessarily cool water but (hopefully) no one says "cold water cooler" or "frozen ice machine".

"Fatuous pleonasm is, hrmm." -Yoda


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Re: Pleonasm [Re: Aramis] #194804
12/10/10 12:49 PM
12/10/10 12:49 PM
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"frozen ice machine" gets 92,800 ghits.

Re: Pleonasm [Re: Faldage] #194808
12/10/10 01:46 PM
12/10/10 01:46 PM
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R'lyeh
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"frozen ice machine" gets 92,800 ghits.

The thing I find interesting about pleonasmata is how popular they are and why. Of course, the folks who disparage them and their use are upset, but most of the language-speaking world is blithe to their existence. But redundancy is not something bad in language. In fact, there are many instances of redundancy that don't set the normative grammarians off like a cheap fourth of July firecracker. Concord between different constituents in a sentence is something that is good and grammatical and must-needs be upheld.

And other languages display it to a greater extent than English. Adjectives in Russian, German, and Latin have to agree with the noun they qualify in number, gender, and case. This bluntly put is pleonasm. The information is thus encoded lover several words. Of course, there is a benefit to this, especially in the case case: i.e., it's easier to move words around in a sentence or phrase. For example, in English the nature of things and the things of nature have two different meanings, but in Latin de rerum natura and de natura rerum can only mean the 'nature of things'. In fact, this sample phrase illustrates how Latin is capable of splitting prepositional phrases without the risk of unmeaning.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Re: Pleonasm [Re: RonDavis] #194826
12/10/10 10:25 PM
12/10/10 10:25 PM
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Jackie Offline
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Let's not forget ATM machines and PIN numbers. (For anyone who may not know these Americanisms, ATM stands for automated teller machine, and PIN is personal identification number.)

Re: Pleonasm [Re: Jackie] #194828
12/10/10 11:03 PM
12/10/10 11:03 PM
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this too shall pass
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this is where Faldo steps in and proclaims "redundantism is your friend", or somesuch. does *anyone go around saying 'AT machines' or (expecially) 'PI numbers'?

Re: Pleonasm [Re: RonDavis] #194831
12/11/10 12:37 AM
12/11/10 12:37 AM
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There's also, e.g., an ATM card, so ATM has taken on a meaning beyond its literal expansion.

Not to mention that titmouse is a pleonasm, deriving as it does from the Old Norsetittr, 'titmouse' and the Old English mase, 'titmouse'.

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