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#194628 12/06/10 11:32 AM
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By the literal meaning, "free gift" is a pleonasm, but as the word is actually used, a free gift is distinct from a gift. Anywhere I have seen the phrase, the recipient had to pay for a "free gift".

RonDavis #194632 12/06/10 12:32 PM
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Yes but I think that is just clever marketing on behalf of the store supplying a 'free gift' whereas the actual term gift is indeed given freely and so free gift is a pleonasm...it has just become vitiated by those out to gain ownership of your money


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RonDavis #194637 12/06/10 02:16 PM
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a free gift is distinct from a gift.

Yes, in some societies, including ours, gifts are anything but "free". There is a complicated system of reciprocity to take heed of. Originally, there was nothing in the word gift than meant "without cost to the recipient" or "without the obligation of reciprocity", it is merely an abstract noun based on the verb "to give". It is interesting that the German cognate word Gift means poison, and the Greek word (whence our English dose) had the meaning of a quantity of beneficial drug versus a dose of poison. In the end, a gift is something given.

And, as has been pointed out occasionally on these boards, redundancy is not a bug in language, but a feature.


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RonDavis #194639 12/06/10 03:31 PM
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I like that idea that we always have to pay for "free gifts".

As a child in Germany, we had a word for pleonasm: doppelt gemoppelt - which is something like "double done" - only better.

And then my older brother, who was privileged by learning ancient Greek in school, cam home one day and taught his little sisters that the better word to use was "pleonasm".

Now, many years later and books in English, I still prefer doppelt gemoppelt - and would like a colorful word like that in my new language.

Alexa Fleckenstein M., physician, author.


Alexa Fleckenstein M.D., physician, author.
http://members.authorsguild.net/fleckenstein/blog.htm/
Waterdoctor #194642 12/06/10 04:05 PM
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WELCOME, WD


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RonDavis #194643 12/06/10 04:07 PM
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"Pleonasm is often used for emphasis, as in free gift, true fact, or revert back. While such repetition is discouraged, sometimes it becomes part of the language and is used idiomatically, as in a hot water heater."

Would that be idiomatically or idiotically? A "hot water heater" should be a superheater to produce steam but invariably seems to be in some (idiot's) home whenever mentioned. [It does seem like the season for the Grinch to appear even on AWAD.]


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Aramis #194645 12/06/10 09:18 PM
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Super Duper, Aramis. It's freezing cold here. Gotta love that hot water heater designed by knowledgeable experts.

RonDavis #194649 12/07/10 12:37 AM
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Hot water heater is not really a pleonasm. There can be heaters that heat other things than water. And heaters that heat water but do not produce hot water. Heat tape, e.g., is a water heater but all it does to the water is keep it from freezing.

Aramis #194651 12/07/10 01:52 AM
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Aramis!! I just thinking about you yesterday, and missing you! [HUG]

Jackie #194654 12/07/10 02:59 AM
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missing people? wasn't there someone called Pook here also
missing?


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RonDavis #194685 12/08/10 03:38 AM
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Oh, yes--Pookie! I believe he got lost to Facebook. I miss him, too.

Jackie #194686 12/08/10 04:03 AM
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How sad.


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LukeJavan8 #194715 12/09/10 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: beck123 in anagrams IV
SCUBA


just catching up on the posts I missed and wanted to comment on this one...S.C.U.B.A (originally an acronym for Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus)...and so may be considered a 'pleonasm' when teamed with tanks as in 'scuba tanks'.

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Jackie! Baybee!! smile


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Faldage #194741 12/09/10 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: Faldage
Hot water heater is not really a pleonasm. There can be heaters that heat other things than water. And heaters that heat water but do not produce hot water. Heat tape, e.g., is a water heater but all it does to the water is keep it from freezing.


Hey Fal cool
It is not the "water" part that is the problem in that. It would also sound lame but make more sense to say "hot water maker". Function is not the issue. A water cooler does not necessarily cool water but (hopefully) no one says "cold water cooler" or "frozen ice machine".

"Fatuous pleonasm is, hrmm." -Yoda


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Aramis #194804 12/10/10 12:49 PM
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"frozen ice machine" gets 92,800 ghits.

Faldage #194808 12/10/10 01:46 PM
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"frozen ice machine" gets 92,800 ghits.

The thing I find interesting about pleonasmata is how popular they are and why. Of course, the folks who disparage them and their use are upset, but most of the language-speaking world is blithe to their existence. But redundancy is not something bad in language. In fact, there are many instances of redundancy that don't set the normative grammarians off like a cheap fourth of July firecracker. Concord between different constituents in a sentence is something that is good and grammatical and must-needs be upheld.

And other languages display it to a greater extent than English. Adjectives in Russian, German, and Latin have to agree with the noun they qualify in number, gender, and case. This bluntly put is pleonasm. The information is thus encoded lover several words. Of course, there is a benefit to this, especially in the case case: i.e., it's easier to move words around in a sentence or phrase. For example, in English the nature of things and the things of nature have two different meanings, but in Latin de rerum natura and de natura rerum can only mean the 'nature of things'. In fact, this sample phrase illustrates how Latin is capable of splitting prepositional phrases without the risk of unmeaning.


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RonDavis #194826 12/10/10 10:25 PM
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Let's not forget ATM machines and PIN numbers. (For anyone who may not know these Americanisms, ATM stands for automated teller machine, and PIN is personal identification number.)

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this is where Faldo steps in and proclaims "redundantism is your friend", or somesuch. does *anyone go around saying 'AT machines' or (expecially) 'PI numbers'?

RonDavis #194831 12/11/10 12:37 AM
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There's also, e.g., an ATM card, so ATM has taken on a meaning beyond its literal expansion.

Not to mention that titmouse is a pleonasm, deriving as it does from the Old Norsetittr, 'titmouse' and the Old English mase, 'titmouse'.

Faldage #194832 12/11/10 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: Faldage
There's also, e.g., an ATM card, so ATM has taken on a meaning beyond its literal expansion.


correct...as has SCUBA.

tsuwm #194841 12/11/10 02:53 AM
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this is where Faldo steps in and proclaims "redundantism is your friend", or somesuch.

Talk about a mantle of chopped liver invisibility. And what have I been on in this very same thread?


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zmjezhd #194847 12/11/10 09:45 AM
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My favourite pleonasm has to be a place calle Haughurst Hill.

A 'haugh', in Old English means 'hill' and 'hurst' means 'wood'.

Therefore 'Haughurst' means 'wooded hill' or ' wood on a hill'.
However, over time the residents have obviously forgotton this and renamed 'Haughurst' as 'Haughurst Hill' and thus it becomes 'wooded hill hill' or 'wood on a hill hill'.


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bexter #194850 12/11/10 11:43 AM
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Have you sent that in for this weeks competition Bex...with picture, its sure to be a winner grin

Candy #194953 12/14/10 11:29 AM
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WOW...900 entries (and mine didn't even get a mention)

this was winner.....
AWAD mail

Mine in case you wondered was....


How people say baby then follow with the young of animal, ie baby cub (bear) baby foal (horse) or baby joey (kangaroo). Their name already describes them as being the young of the animal.

Kylie Kwong is a popular Australian television chef, author and restaurateur and her recipe for Braised Moroccan-style Lamb Shanks calls for the use of 'baby lamb shanks'.

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baby cub (bear) baby foal (horse) or baby joey (kangaroo). Their name already describes them as being the young of the animal.

Yes, but a baby lamb is younger than a lamb, just like a baby is younger than a youth.


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Candy #194960 12/14/10 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: Candy
Have you sent that in for this weeks competition Bex...with picture, its sure to be a winner grin


No I didn't...I totally forgot about the competition! woops!


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cross-threading alert
from a bexter link in the acronyms thread:

Some lexicographic wit coined a term for what’s ­happened to laser, radar, and their ilk: they’ve become ­anacronyms, a ­neologism that smooshes the sounds (and the meanings) of acronym and anachronism. The product of smooshing two words together, by the way, is a portmanteau.

When an acronym becomes an anacronym, funny things can happen to it. For one, people sometimes start saying the acronym coupled with the verbalization of one of its constituent elements. Hence in ”SCSI interface,” the word ”interface” is completely redundant, because that’s what the ”I” is for.

tsuwm #194988 12/14/10 06:31 PM
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following up on myself, I see that anacronym actually has an OLI of seven(7).

tsuwm #194989 12/14/10 09:24 PM
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When an acronym becomes an anacronym, funny things can happen to it.

They can suffer from RAS Syndrome

RonDavis #194995 12/15/10 12:04 AM
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When an acronym (or initialism) becomes commonly used it gets applied to other things than the thing it originally meant. That's kind of a awkward way of saying it, but an example would be something like USB bus, where the B in USB means 'bus'. You can also have USB connectors, or USB cables so saying USB all by itself is kind of missing something. In this case I would maintain that the redundancy of USB bus adds something to the understandability of the term. The same is true of ATM machine, since you can have ATM cards. Other so-called pleonasms such as PIN number clear up any ambiguity with 'pin' or even, in some dialects, 'pen'.

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Ah, but if you just say ATM, everybody knows you mean the machine.

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Well, depending on the context. On the other hand, if you say ATM machine everyone knows what you mean, too. I'm just saying that if you say ATM card you've divorced the initialism just that little bit away from the literal expansion. ATM starts to stand for the whole complex of which the machine is just one part.

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What is the inherent problem with pleonasms? In the ATM case (which I originally learned as an initialism for Asynchronous Transfer Mode) nobody would say automated teller machine machine (except jocularly), but something in a person's language instinct drives them to say ATM machine. It could be as Faldo suggests to try and resolve some possible ambiguity, which case works well for PIN. Sometimes a redundancy is just a redundancy.


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zmjezhd #195010 12/15/10 12:28 PM
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We don't seem to have the ATM machine problem over here...cash machine is used instead...I remember when I first heard the ATM acronym used by a Canadian friend who needed to get some money from one and looking stupidly at her wondering how she would go about getting money from Air Traffic Management before she explained that her ATM acronym stood for Automated Teller Machine...


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zmjezhd #195012 12/15/10 02:39 PM
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>Sometimes a redundancy is just a redundancy.

and sometimes it really isn't needed (context). you're standing next to the teller's window in a bank, wanting to withdraw some cash (say you can't abide the ATMs (cash machines) in the lobby), and he asks you to enter your PIN into his little PIN-receptor device. do you do as he asks, or do you stare at him in total befuddlement? only once, at most, I wager.
-ron o.

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do you do as he asks, or do you stare at him in total befuddlement? only once, at most, I wager.

It's hard to say. PIN number may have changed its meaning in contexts other than this. It might be that a bank employee might say "enter your PIN" at that point. I believe I have heard that in the wild, but i could be wrong.


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(I believe I have heard that in the wild, but i could be wrong.

The little EFTPOS machines visually ask you to enter your PIN. So someone has knowingly discarded the redundancy.

zmjezhd #195060 12/16/10 04:46 AM
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at my bank, when you make a deposit (say checks), and you want some cash back, the human teller usually says "enter your PIN, please."

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So someone has knowingly discarded the redundancy.

Yes, but it's probably because the peevers have raised a stink. Who knows what folks say when they're off the job and talking about ATM PINs.


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Today's quote, "Like a horny sightless woman on a blind date, she begins to knead her heavy friendship-ring-laden fingers into my face. 'Leptorrhine nose ... kumquat-headed ...'", contains a pleonasm.

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WELCOME, LADYREADER


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LadyReader #195087 12/16/10 08:27 PM
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Well spotted wink

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Originally Posted By: olly
Well spotted wink


Dunno. Leptorhine is an adjective and lepto- is a combining form. You can't really say "Like a horny sightless woman on a blind date, she begins to knead her heavy friendship-ring-laden fingers into my face. 'Leptorrhine ... kumquat-headed ...'" or "... friendship-ring-laden fingers into my face. 'Lepto nose ... kumquat-headed ...'"

As for instances of ATM without the machine or PIN without the number, sure you'll run into those in the wild. They don't make ATM machine or PIN number wrong even if context makes it clear what you're talking about without the machine or number. Even with context there can be confusion.

Teller at the bank, helping a confused customer with his ATM card: "Do you have your PIN?"

Customer: "Yes ma'am. Rat cheer in mah pocket. It's a BIC."

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Rat Ahem. That should be raht. Rat is pronounced ray-ut.

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I'm spelling using SWE conventions. If I'd meant it to be pronounced ray-ut I'd've spelled it ray-ut.

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and if I'd've meant PIN to be pronounced 'pen'.. well, I didn't, because it's just not, here.

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The argument that there's other ways of saying it without confusion so the way you're saying it is wrong is a non-starter. There's always other ways of saying it.

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Nobody has said yet what exactly is wrong with redundancy. It seems useful to me. Sometimes its inflectional concord between words (which is a requirement of some languages and its absence would signal a grammatical error); sometimes it's for rhetorical effect (and we're all for that where and when appropriate); sometimes it's to avoid ambiguity (which seems a good thing, too); and sometimes it's something which annoys a select group of speakers (who usually seem wrong about other aspects of language, so I'd say it's something to do with them and not the language)..


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This subject came up in the context of pilotless drones back almost 4 years ago on Language Log. They do a pretty good job of discussing the nature of modification.

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I know I should have entered this in the pleonasm contest, but I am new here.
My least favorite pleonasm is do do, as in; .....and when they do do that.........
When is it ever necessary to use two do's, except for when speaking to or about pets? And then, why not just call it what it is?

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WELCOME, JAY


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Originally Posted By: Jay Lyman
I know I should have entered this in the pleonasm contest, but I am new here.


As you might of read..there were so many entries, anyway you still have posted it here.

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Originally Posted By: Jay Lyman
I know I should have entered this in the pleonasm contest, but I am new here.
My least favorite pleonasm is do do, as in; .....and when they do do that.........
When is it ever necessary to use two do's, except for when speaking to or about pets? And then, why not just call it what it is?


This structure is generally used when explicitly contrasting with someone's not doing something.

E.g.:

When they don't do their homework their grades in the class suffer, but when they do do their homework they generally learn more and get more benefit from the class.

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another good example:
"We thought ethically people would never do that, but now we know that they do do this."

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Do what you do, do well, boy
Do what you do, do well
Give your love and all of your heart
And do what you do, do well

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Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
Nobody has said yet what exactly is wrong with redundancy. It seems useful to me. Sometimes its inflectional concord between words (which is a requirement of some languages and its absence would signal a grammatical error); sometimes it's for rhetorical effect (and we're all for that where and when appropriate); sometimes it's to avoid ambiguity (which seems a good thing, too); and sometimes it's something which annoys a select group of speakers (who usually seem wrong about other aspects of language, so I'd say it's something to do with them and not the language)..


What is wrong with it, besides lack of dignity, is that it escalates, driving the world closer to Fahrenheit 451 and 1984. Babblers so enamored of their own voices that they cannot be bothered to recall what acronyms mean perpetuate these things and even try to justify it with "all the other 'tards say it that way". One of the most intelligent characters in television was made to sound like a total dolt by saying "OCD disorder". And yes, at least one viewer noticed. It is time to declare Pleonasm Jihad!


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It is time to declare Pleonasm Jihad!

You need to take a stress pill, man. I appreciate the humor, but it is almost AWOL. The thing is, language changes, and nobody can stop it. Nobody spells radar, laser, or scuba as acronyms any more. And English is no worse the wear for it. Good luck on your jihad; maybe you'll learn something new on the trip ...


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Me, I don't care for pleonasms. I've always had a weak spot for the contradictio interminis. I like the irony and sometimes cynism that is attached to it.

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What would holiday cheer be without Aramis the Intolerant’s Grinch counter to Fal the Coddler? Those de-volved acronyms (one really from RaDAR) are not so troublesome. But real acronyms mean what they mean, in any context. If SAM is not clear enough and additional wind is so gratifying, by all means one should utter “SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILE”. Part of the tragedy is that some of those should never have been invented, particularly with a last letter denoting System, Program, Syndrome, Card, and most of all Number. The banking industry should have gone with PID. cool


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>What would holiday cheer be without Aramis the Intolerant’s Grinch counter to Fal the Coddler?

say, do you suppose that A. is onto something here, and that zmj and Fal really are the same person?! laugh

-joe (talk about your tautologies) friday

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and that zmj and Fal really are the same person?!

That would explain their bicoasted personas, the fact that none have seen them together (even once), and that Faldo has pulled more than one practical joke on me. OTOH, I was thinking that A. might be a sock-puppet of Dahil.

zmj (the man who was his own nuncle) aldo


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Originally Posted By: Aramis

What is wrong with it, besides lack of dignity, is that it escalates, driving the world closer to Fahrenheit 451 and 1984.


Ah! The good old slippery slope argument. If we stop with the agreement between adjective and noun in case, gender, and number pretty soon we'll all be speaking Ffrenche.

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Rats! Or rayuts! I could have bet my bottom dollar (it's good I don't have one) that jheem-s and tsu-s were one (of a kind).
- ron(shame on you, sherlock) obvious
Eta: well, what the fudge do I know, anyway?

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A. might be a sock-puppet While having met neither in person, I'd bet a smallish amount of money that they're not.
I'll tell you-all what: make me The Supreme Universal Word Mistress (NOOOOOOOOOOO, not tsuwm's!!!) and all disagreements will be settled by me. No discussion or ripostes; my word will be grammatical law. For the world. [gracious bow e]

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I'll vote for that Jackie.

BUT WAit......one question first. Are you female?

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Originally Posted By: zmjezhd

The thing is, language changes and nobody can stop it.


Like the Thought for the Day.... AWAD... yesterday!

Words are chameleons, which reflect the color of their environment. -Learned Hand, jurist (1872-1961)

I liked that.

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Originally Posted By: Candy
I'll vote for that Jackie.

BUT WAit......one question first. Are you female?


yes, she is!


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tsuwm #195199 12/21/10 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: tsuwm
this is where Faldo steps in and proclaims "redundantism is your friend", or somesuch. does *anyone go around saying 'AT machines' or (expecially) 'PI numbers'?


“AT machine” would be wonderful, a victory to intolerant prescriptivists everywhere. It could be like a small Chinese man stopping a tank, lighting a tiny candle in the dumbing-down darkness descending on the world. Then “ATMM” could have a real meaning, perhaps an auto-teller maintenance robot or a corrupt political organization that controls bank equipment. Just have the intellectual starch to know what you are saying; that is all we at the IPS are asking. And we are ready to appoint Jackie Supreme Leader.


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Are you female? Yes, I are. And a bit square, too. (Thanks, Buffle.)

And thanks to others also for the tone of recent posts becoming lighter. :-)
Perhaps I should note here that when I make "profound" (flat) declarations like "Ah, but if you just say ATM, everybody knows you mean the machine.", there is a 99.99% probability that they were tongue-in-cheek.

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Just have the intellectual starch to know what you are saying; that is all we at the IPS are asking.

Not only do I know what I'm saying when I say "PIN" or "ATM", but I also know what folks mean when they say "PIN number" or "ATM machine". You know you could just start shooting people who don't speak as you would have them. After a while that would solve the problem. Of course, the overly corrected could start shooting back. Then your grammato-jihad would be in full swing. A what a semantic paradise.


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zmjezhd #195222 12/22/10 12:14 PM
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Can I shoot the people who say "titmouse"?

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Can I shoot the people who say "titmouse"?

Now you're getting into the spirit of the angry vulgus nobile of POed normative grammarians. Shooting's too good for the folks who use annoying constructions.

First they shot the people who said "ATM machine", and I did nothing. Next they came for the people who said "air" for err, and I did nothing. Finally they came for me, because I pronounced distributed with the accent on the second syllable instead of the first (à la RP in excelsis), and nobody was left to speak the language, and the peevers would not speak to one another because they did not approve of the contradictory shibboleths and quibbles of their fellow grammaticasters, so they sat around, tongued-tied in damp silence.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
zmjezhd #195225 12/22/10 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
First they shot the people who said "ATM machine", and I did nothing. Next they came for the people who said "air" for err, and I did nothing. Finally they came for me, because I pronounced distributed with the accent on the second syllable instead of the first (à la RP in excelsis), and nobody was left to speak the language, and the peevers would not speak to one another because they did not approve of the contradictory shibboleths and quibbles of their fellow grammaticasters, so they sat around, tongued-tied in damp silence.



/bow


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RonDavis #195253 12/24/10 12:57 AM
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Does anyone else see it as a malignant spoonerism?

doc_comfort #195254 12/24/10 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: doc_comfort

Does anyone else see it as a malignant spoonerism?


What? Neoplasm?

RonDavis #195282 12/24/10 07:36 PM
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BTW, all y'all that are fighting against the use of the phrase "ATM machine" would appear to be fighting a will-o-the-wisp.

Faldage #195283 12/24/10 07:45 PM
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Ah but that only covers books and anyone writing a book and including ATM machine are sure to be corrected by their editors. What Ngram doesn't take into account is day to day speech, which is where ATM machine crops up the most...


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RonDavis #195289 12/24/10 11:29 PM
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Unless it's fiction and the author is representing the speech of normal type folks.

RonDavis #195919 01/11/11 02:36 PM
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Thanks for the info.............


People to conquer victory. gclub in Singapore, most people will be born a tiger. Tiger will be suppressed because the lion in gclub.
mazda #195958 01/11/11 10:41 PM
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Here's the figures from English fiction.

Faldage #195977 01/12/11 07:49 AM
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Interesting...so it's going up again now then? I thought we may have won that one!


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bexter #195989 01/12/11 12:12 PM
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My point is that "ATM machine" has been scoring zero since the beginning. Hardly counts as a win if the opponent doesn't even show up. But if you want to fight against this one maybe it'll keep you too busy to fight some of the others that don't need fighting against.

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"Self autonomy" is a personal pet hate...I shall henseforth abandon my crusade against ATM machine and move onto more annoying ones...;)


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bexter #196016 01/12/11 02:19 PM
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One more on ATM's
CNN reports today that they are dirtier than public
restrooms. Just for the record.


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LukeJavan8 #196020 01/12/11 02:23 PM
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And a sponge is dirtier than a toilet...as are keyboards...Everything is dirtier than a toilet!


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bexter #196031 01/12/11 02:45 PM
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Just my two bits on ATM machines (ha)


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bexter #196077 01/13/11 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: bexter
"Self autonomy" is a personal pet hate...I shall henseforth abandon my crusade against ATM machine and move onto more annoying ones...;)


Self autonomy?! OK, so it does get tens of thousands of google hits, but really, "self autonomy"?! It makes "ATM machine" look like "the".

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Ah but it is a political term that is unlikely to appear in any of the political books because they know that autonomy doesn't need the self in front of it...it is normal non-political-ideological people who put the self in front. Hence it not being found in books...

Last edited by bexter; 01/13/11 01:10 PM.

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bexter #196107 01/13/11 04:06 PM
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many of these hits are false (see commas, colons, etc.); but still, it is being found in books: self-autonomy in books

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The self autonomy top hit is self , autonomy thus giving a different meaning...


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bexter #196116 01/13/11 04:27 PM
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please re-see my post (including parenthetical).

edit: I'll admit to not looking at the results too deeply, but 5 of 10 on the first page are 'self-autonomy', and also 8 of 20; that's not "not".

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I apologise then on seeing some genuine psychiatric books with the term self-autonomy in them - they should know better! Especially as they probably did a little bit of working at university and know that auto means self...tsk tsk

p.s. autonomy is, quite literally, "independent, living by one's own laws," from auto- "self" + nomos "custom, law". In political ideological speak it means self-rule, free from outside interference (found in anarchism)

Last edited by bexter; 01/13/11 04:44 PM.

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RonDavis #196156 01/14/11 01:00 AM
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Autonomy, as a political term, generally refers to a state being autonomous in reference to some larger state of which it is a part. I could see self-autonomy being used as a term of art in psychiatry where the self- is added to differentiate it from political autonomy. I would say that objections to the term self-autonomy would then just be overly literal objections to what really amounts to precision in language, not an uncommon trait in the field of peevology.

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I only ever used autonomy whilst discussing the anarchist ideology because it was generally accepted that governments or states were ruling themselves as well as the state...autonomy tends to be used as a replacement for the state dictates that anarchists believe in (autonomy and no state or any authority except your own)


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ilikethat2499 #197504 02/18/11 04:20 PM
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as Bran said elsewhere; spam.


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LukeJavan8 #197510 02/18/11 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8
as Bran said elsewhere; spam.


if spam is suspected, click the "Notify" button of the offending post.


(which I have done for this one and the other mentioned lower on the page.)


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Buffalo Shrdlu #197515 02/18/11 11:21 PM
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...as I have done, so it has been done twice, you and me.


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RonDavis #197516 02/19/11 01:59 AM
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Well, that was weird. I went to edit the spam post...and the link wasn't there! So I just deleted the whole thing. If that was not actually spam but something we should be interested in, I offer my apologies and ask the post-er to re-post it with perhaps some explanation.

RonDavis #197522 02/19/11 03:58 AM
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the link was in their signature, Jackie, not in the post per se.


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Yupper.


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RonDavis #197541 02/19/11 11:18 PM
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Ah--I'll try to remember to check that, next time. I'm afraid it's too late for this time. Thanks.

A reminder for the "old" folks and a notification for the new: I absolutely do not change other peoples' posts unless there are extenuating circumstances.

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And that, of course, is good to know. This spam had something
to do with a casino in Singapore or something. It was not
in English, could only tell by the pictures with it.


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LukeJavan8 #197550 02/20/11 12:40 AM
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you can use 'google translate' it works well.

Candy #197553 02/20/11 12:48 AM
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It was not in sentences, big bill board type of advertising.


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#198159 03/09/11 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: ohooahaasusu
Hello everyone I just came Register......


oh
good for you smile

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WELCOME OHOO....


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#198168 03/09/11 02:34 PM
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I just came Register.

I b'lieve what we got hiah is spam in Thai ... Not that I read Thai, but the links are obvious enough in English.


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Candy #198170 03/09/11 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Candy
Originally Posted By: ohooahaasusu
Hello everyone I just came Register......


oh
good for you smile


and all over the pleonasm thread, too...

;¬ )


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Buffalo Shrdlu #198172 03/09/11 03:48 PM
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In this thread rather inappropriate o....u. unwelcome mad

Last edited by BranShea; 03/10/11 10:19 AM.
BranShea #198173 03/09/11 05:49 PM
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another spammer (ohooahaasusu) and his posts gone and gone.

can someone explain (perhaps again) why there are always more Spiders online than registered and Guests combined? (I think we've establish *what they are, but why are they always present in such numbers?)

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So the ohoo....person was a spammer. Thai, was it? Wonder
what it said. If I had known Thai I might have babelfished
or googletranslated.


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LukeJavan8 #198178 03/09/11 11:43 PM
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The link that was his signature was a link to an on-line gambling site.

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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How rude!

This person also registered the name ilikethat2499 so I suppose we should be on the lookout for similar posts.

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Originally Posted By: tsuwm
another spammer (ohooahaasusu) and his posts gone and gone.

can someone explain (perhaps again) why there are always more Spiders online than registered and Guests combined? (I think we've establish *what they are, but why are they always present in such numbers?)

Aren't spiders besides search engines also people who come to read without being logged in? Like 'invisibles' are subscribed invisables, these can be subscribed ànd unsubscribed invisables reading from an unlogged position.

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Originally Posted By: Faldage
The link that was his signature was a link to an on-line gambling site.


I saw that when I used the quote from the post. The signature took up 1/2 page so I edited it out. I should have recognised that it was spam blush

Bran... people who don't sign in are 'guests'.
I want to know what spiders are too.

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My understanding is that spiders are bots sent out by search engines looking for things that are going to be searched for. So, if you google, say, wordsmith candy pleonasm the search engine will have already figured out where to go looking for those strings.

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'guests'
Thanks, I hope I'll remember that.

RonDavis #198190 03/10/11 01:42 PM
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Oohaahaasusu - I do not know what it means in Thai but in India across the subcontinent the last bit of the word "susu" means - well YCLIU... It is an onomatopoeic word.
On the whole the name suggests great relief at taking a pee.

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Originally Posted By: BranShea
In this thread rather inappropriate o....u. unwelcome mad


sorry Bran. frown


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LukeJavan8 #198194 03/10/11 02:58 PM
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Thai, was it?

I just assumed it was Thai. Lao is also written using the Thai syllabary, but s/he was probably Thai.


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"susu" means - well YCLIU..

Back while I was still teaching classes in computer science, I had quite a few Thai students and many of their names ended in -porn. Mild co-inky-dinky? or the raisin debt for this one going into spam. If some modern-day Dante were to rewrite the Divine Comedy for today's audiences, there would no doubt be a special ring (or bowditch) in Hell for spammers.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Faldage #198196 03/10/11 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: Faldage
The link that was his signature was a link to an on-line gambling site.



I see, thanks, Fal.


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Above or below lawyers?
The people I work with in rehab say the bottom rung of the
ladder of hell is reserved for them.


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Welcome. Dropping in on the Divine Comedy musings?

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Originally Posted By: BranShea
Welcome. Dropping in on the Divine Comedy musings?


I think they just like spam...


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To all the seven rings of Hell then!

RonDavis #200138 06/01/11 01:22 PM
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(notified)


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Thanks, from all of us.


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notified...


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Buffalo Shrdlu #200360 06/09/11 12:49 PM
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You are on the ball Buff grin

Candy #200364 06/09/11 03:42 PM
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Way to catch that oft-repeated Thai gambling place.


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RonDavis #200516 06/17/11 01:52 AM
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It is very good.
----------------------------------

#200689 06/24/11 03:22 PM
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Notified that it is spam.


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RonDavis #200729 06/26/11 07:54 AM
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Was there more SPAM Luke.....I wonder why they bother?

Candy #200739 06/26/11 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: Candy
Was there more SPAM Luke.....I wonder why they bother?


Because it works.

Candy #200743 06/26/11 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: Candy
Was there more SPAM Luke.....I wonder why they bother?


It works. It trapped me. Actually the posting is still there:
by the person above me known as 3-16, but Anu deleted the
signature which was the spam: it was the usual signature
in Thai ( I presume) for the casino in Bankok.


----please, draw me a sheep----
Faldage #200746 06/26/11 09:01 PM
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Works? You mean the spammer makes a living out this? It must be just as boring a job as working in a call centre.

BranShea #200748 06/26/11 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: BranShea
Works? You mean the spammer makes a living out this? It must be just as boring a job as working in a call centre.


The spammer writes a bot that goes out to various message boards such as this one, registers, and posts the spam as normal looking messages. Some of the cleverer ones will actually look like they're responding to something already posted. The less clever in that category will just repeat something already posted or say something like, "I found this to be very helpful." Sometimes there are links to the site being advertised right there in the post, sometimes it will be links in the poster's info page. They don't get a very high percentage of results but the volume they get from having a bot doing the heavy work makes it worthwhile.

The defense against this is to make it more difficult to register, whether through Captcha, by requiring the registrant to respond to an email that takes them to a login page, or some other method of weeding out non-humans.

Faldage #200750 06/26/11 10:03 PM
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This Thai gambling thing has been around a long time, so your
suggestion looks good to me.


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LukeJavan8 #200751 06/26/11 10:21 PM
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It trapped me. I may be wrong--one of the computer whizzes on here might better advise you--but this kind of thing would make me get my computer checked for viruses and other unwanted gremlins.

Jackie #200754 06/26/11 11:02 PM
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Back in posting #200516, the signature was a link to
a gambling site - and it was written in Thai or someother
SE Asian language. The signature has been eliminated but
the posting remains.

Last edited by LukeJavan8; 06/26/11 11:03 PM.

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RonDavis #200755 06/27/11 12:39 AM
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It was Thai.

Faldage #200756 06/27/11 01:11 AM
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Is that why they keep on at the "Pleonasm" thread-because it's programmed?

Faldage #200762 06/27/11 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: Faldage
.....
The defense against this is to make it more difficult to register, whether through Captcha, by requiring the registrant to respond to an email that takes them to a login page, or some other method of weeding out non-humans.


Ahhh that answers a question I had, from last week, when signing up for something on the internet. It asked me to copy a phrase to show I was human. Now I understand. I did think it funny at the time.

Candy #200764 06/27/11 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: Candy


Ahhh that answers a question I had, from last week, when signing up for something on the internet. It asked me to copy a phrase to show I was human. Now I understand. I did think it funny at the time.


This sort of thing will get more common and become more difficult. It's all part of the on-going war against spamming. As the tests get more difficult the spammers will get better at handling them. It may eventually lead to artificial intelligence.

Faldage #200805 06/29/11 12:40 AM
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It may eventually lead to artificial intelligence. Ooh, ooh--can I have some?

Jackie #200817 06/29/11 04:00 AM
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I know a few people with artificial intelligence.

Jackie #200820 06/29/11 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: Jackie
It may eventually lead to artificial intelligence. Ooh, ooh--can I have some?


I said that after reading olly's post>>then look up and you said it first Jackie smirk
I loved that concept in the movies, Matrix....where they plug into a computer and download information into their brains.

Faldage #200828 06/29/11 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: Faldage
Some of the cleverer ones will actually look like they're responding to something already posted. The less clever in that category will just repeat something already posted or say something like, "I found this to be very helpful."


An example of a variant on this method is in Miscellany right now. I've already reported it to Anu so it may not still be there when you read this, but it is a post by Maryanne which reads in full:

Quote:
What was Ben Schott's reason for writing Schott's original miscellany? I need to know urgently, and also any other facts about the book.


It was followed by some links to various commercial sites. This post was an initial post so it doesn't exactly fit my definition above, but spam nonetheless.

olly #200831 06/29/11 12:01 PM
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I know a few people with artificial intelligence.

Yes, artificial is one of those qualifiers that has to do overtime semantics and pragmatics wise. In that sense it is like organic or chemical. "Junk food is full of chemicals!" Well, in point of fact, all our food is full of chemicals. The statement means that "Junk food is full of undesired chemicals." This is the sort of thing that language excels in, and which drives some people (with small dictionaries) crazy. The funny thing is that most humor would not be possible except for ambiguity, polysemy, and mispronunciation (or punning).


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RonDavis #200869 06/30/11 06:26 AM
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Maybe if we change the name of the pleonasm thread the Thai bot will stop.

Avy #200871 06/30/11 12:34 PM
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Maybe if we change the name of the pleonasm thread the Thai bot will stop.

Or, we could lock the thread.


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zmjezhd #200872 06/30/11 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
Thai, was it?

I just assumed it was Thai. Lao is also written using the Thai syllabary, but s/he was probably Thai.


Actually Lao uses a different alphabet (or abugida to be precise).

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Actually Lao uses a different alphabet (or abugida to be precise).

You're right, but I cannot really tell the difference between the two, as easily as I can between say the Devanagari and Tamil syllabaries.


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I always get here after the spam has already been reported and deleted. Is this the only thread it's been in? If so, I'll be happy to lock it if I can. And if anyone wants to continue the discussion--possibly under another title?--they can just copy the relevant posts and start a new thread.

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I think from my perspective the gambling sites in Thai, Lao
or whatever language they are, are on this thread. I've
reported them at least three times.


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Originally Posted By: Jackie
I always get here after the spam has already been reported and deleted.....


So you are not the only 'worker' on here then Jackie?

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Oh, no. This is Anu's site. Therefore I assume he's the one who has gotten rid of all of them in recent months. I'm just a person.

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Originally Posted By: Jackie
I'm just a person.

And Caruso was just a singer.

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all things in 'moderation' you guys!
I just ignore the add-ons at the bottom because so many people nowdays have that stuff as part of their signature. iPhone posts often say 'sent from my iPhone' unless you program it out.


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Hey V. I've finally worked out what your signature is. Here was I thinking it was some type of code ripe for the cracking, doh! smile

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well, actually, I do make some minor changes to it when I send it to certain people at certain times (is it 'smiling' or 'biting', is her tail 'curly' or 'straight') to let them know certain things so it is sometimes a code of sorts.


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RonDavis #201026 07/07/11 10:31 AM
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It's Ba-aack
cue scary music

RonDavis #201030 07/07/11 10:48 AM
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Did you report it....or are we waiting for Jackie this time?

Candy #201036 07/07/11 03:03 PM
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It still comes via email, if not posted on the site's thread.


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Zed #201043 07/08/11 01:36 AM
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Okay--what I saw when I came on just now was Candy's post that said: well, actually, I do make some minor changes to it when I send it to certain people at certain times (is it 'smiling' or 'biting', is her tail 'curly' or 'straight') to let them know certain things so it is sometimes a code of sorts., followed immediately by posts from zed, Candy and Luke. I take it I missed something?

Jackie #201050 07/08/11 01:53 AM
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Actually that was my post 'va-vavoom' talking about my little aligator signature line and Olly's post saying he/she/they finally figured out what it was and had been thinking it was a code of some kind.
I didn't see any other aberrant posts.


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va-vavoom #201051 07/08/11 02:09 AM
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Ah--came back here realizing my mistaken credit, to find you beat me to it! But, okay--good to know there hadn't been another incidence of spam.

Jackie #201054 07/08/11 02:58 AM
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not that I saw, but my aligator adores spam on wheat toast!


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Jackie #201055 07/08/11 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted By: Jackie
Ah--came back here realizing my mistaken credit, to find you beat me to it! But, okay--good to know there hadn't been another incidence of spam.


There was but apparently it didn't last long.

RonDavis #201057 07/08/11 11:21 AM
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Yes Jackie.....spam post appeared, be it ever so briefly, just before Zed and mine post, just back up a bit.

Jackie #201064 07/08/11 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jackie
Okay--what I saw when I came on just now was Candy's post that said: well, actually, I do make some minor changes to it when I send it to certain people at certain times (is it 'smiling' or 'biting', is her tail 'curly' or 'straight') to let them know certain things so it is sometimes a code of sorts., followed immediately by posts from zed, Candy and Luke. I take it I missed something?



It was spam, but someone took care of it. I received it on the
email, but when I clicked it on, it simply said please click
back to previous post. And that feature never works on my computer.
It was an innocuous statement followed by the Thai/Lao signature
but did not appear on the site only in the email.


----please, draw me a sheep----
RonDavis #201074 07/09/11 01:27 AM
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Huh; ok, thanks, y'all.

Jackie #201091 07/09/11 04:51 AM
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Yes but...it did appear here (I don't have this thread emailed).

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