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we've come very close of late to actually® saying something serious about the differences between 'dialects' of English; here's something John Fowles wrote in "Daniel Martin":
Nothing distinguishes us more clearly from the Americans, nothing characterizes better the very different ways we use our shared language -- the way they use it as a tool, even when they are being poetic, and the way we treat it as a poem, even when we are using it as a tool.
comments?
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Wow cool quote, although I don't totally agree with it, I like it. When I was in school in France everyone wanted to learn "American" instead of the British English taught in school. I always thought of American as more playful and British as more formal.
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I don't much care for it. It is apparently saying that
for the British, their language is more a part of them than ours is for us, and also that they appreciate their language more than we do.
Mind--I didn't say it isn't true--just that I don't like it.
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I don't much care for it. It is apparently saying that
for the British, their language is more a part of them than ours is for us, and also that they appreciate their language more than we do.
Mind--I didn't say it isn't true--just that I don't like it.Interesting, I did not read it that way. I took the author to be expressing an opinion on disparate attitude toward language, and its role in society. As an example of what I understood the author to be tlking about, consider the whole question of "supererogatory" vowels. Many who speak American English are proud of the excision of such, viewing this as a more logical, efficient spelling, which, in truth, it is. It does seem seem to display that view of language as a tool, a means to an end, something that should be honed and refined to accomplish a designated purpose, devoid of unproductive frippery. In this, I have long perceived a "teutonic" influence, brooking none of the English tolerance of, and fondness for, whimsy. I hasten to add that I don't view the, as I perceive it, utilitarian spirit of American English to be a bad thing, or to be inferior to the spirit of UK English, which I prefer. It is simply different, and that's what I took from the quote, that the observable differences in the "two" English languages are reflections of different philosophies. There was an element of superiority about the author's approach that I could not share, as he seems to be the sort of person who might scarcely deign to allow that the language I speak should be called English. Despite that, I still think he made a valid point. Language is an expression of culture, and the culture of the United States has long been heavily influenced by Calvinist ideals, so why should not the language reflect the same appreciation for the frugal and the efficient, over the frivolous and redundant? (Wee sleekit Max, is now in hiding, cowering timorously) 
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(Wee sleekit Max, is now in hiding, cowering timorously)Been burnsed before have we, Max?  I'm not going to use Max's $9 words to say what I have to say. The whole supposition behind tsuwm's original, and no doubt intentionally controversial, quote is that there are two (count 'em) two, forms of English and that one is this and the other is that. Well, sorry, there are a lot more than that. In fact there is at least one dialect of spoken English, with its own whimsy, loan-words from other languages, pronunciation and usage, for every country that uses the core product. The only measure of "quality" is whether other people who speak it can understand it. Generally, but not always, the written form follows the basic rules but you'll find contractions, idioms and wholesale borrowing from other languages mixed in. You can verify this by looking at any newspaper website in any English-speaking country. Apart from Zild and Strine, which are markedly different from each other (as well as being different from American and British English) and are becoming more so as time goes on, two outstanding examples are Singlish and Filipino English. Whenever I'm in Singapore I get apologised to at least once for the unthinking use of Singlish. Singapore uses written English not too far removed from the common core, but speaks it much differently. The major difference between Zild and Singlish is that the accent is completely flat, with American vowel sounds. The word order sometimes varies - I'm told this is often due to the Mandarin influence. It's also spoken at something approaching the land speed record. But once you get used to it, you miss very little. Filipino English sometimes sounds like Tagalog - when Filipinos are speaking to each other you can get a shock to realise that they really are speaking English. "Educated" English is spoken with a twang like an exaggerated American accent. Normal spoken Filipino English includes lots of local dialect words and odd usages of English expressions. This is actually reflected in their newspaper written style, which reads like it was written by a New Zealand 10-year-old with a shaky grasp of grammar at times. These people use English every day, although it may not always be their first language. But they THINK in English, and that makes them English-speakers in my book. None of this is judgmental - it's just the way it is. I would guess that there are more people who speak a variety of English which is neither British nor American than there are who do ... [/rant]
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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I'm not going to use Max's $9 words to say what I have to say.USD, CDN, AUD, NZD, HKD - be specific please. I have either been flattered, or gravely insulted, depending upon the currency you had in mind! 
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CK wrote: "...Zild and Strine, which are markedly different from each other.."
I think they are very similar. The accents are undeniably fused.
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Re the original post, it seems to me like a vast generalisation. John Fowles may think the average British bureacrat or lawyer speaks poetry. I have my doubts. Then again, I also have my doubts about John Fowles' writing. Maybe he and I mean different things by poetry.
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In reply to:
CK wrote: "...Zild and Strine, which are markedly different from each other.."
I think they are very similar. The accents are undeniably fused.
Sorry, belligerentyouth, but the accents are quite undeniably NOT "fused" - confused, granted, but not fused. The accents are similar, but "Joined together into a whole" - absolutely not! Both Australians and NZers are very aware of the significant differences, particularly in vowel sounds. Just ask an Australian and a NZer to say the following sentence
"In Sydney, I picked up my pen to write six numbers down on my order for fish and chips"
and then see if you still think that the accents are fused.
The other point to remember is that CapK's post was about more than accent differnces -it was about divergence between Strine and Zild, and that divergence is significant. Zild still shows a preference for UK usage and spelling, while Strine is drifting Statesward, and Zild's integration of Maori words has accentuated the difference. Zild and Strine are, to borrow the words of Gimli, "Like, and yet unlike"
Noho ora mai, ka kite ano
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the culture of the United States has long been heavily influenced by Calvinist ideals, so why should not the language reflect the same appreciation for the frugal and the efficient, over the frivolous and redundantOh, Max, ya found us'n out! But, redemption is around the corner. We have soooooo many new influences from all over that the language (American) is changing, as ever! And, that frugality really is only a New Englandy sort of thing (check Emily Dickenson and Robert Frost and then take a look at the Southern writers, but please leave Hemingway out of this!) Besides, let it never be said that an American didn't wanna have fun - we just work at it . As to poetic and poems - well, so we get to wax poetic while composing poems. What do the Brits do? Aside from all this - I do love the Englishman's capacity for the frivolous - Alice in Wonderland comes to mind.
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(check Emily Dickenson and Robert FrostAs it happens, they are already my favourite American poets - what does that say about my own languge choices?
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I am undoubtedly little qualified to discuss this problem. But one thing that I think may contribute importantly to the differences between British English and American English is the persistence in England of the social distinction attached to speaking well. wwh
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The quote given, which "seems" to describe the two different approaches to the shared language, makes me feel "good" (Hi, Jackie). Aside from the order in which 'poetry' and 'tool' are placed, he says "Americans can BE POETIC" whereas "English TREAT IT (language) AS A POEM". I would say that "it" does point out (quite nicely) the serious difference, however, I'll have to get the Fowles book to find out exactly what is this "as opposed to nothing" (that distinguishes and characterizes the different ways) to which he is referring...
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USD, CDN, AUD, NZD, HKD - be specific please. I have either been flattered, or gravely insulted, depending upon the currency you had in mind!Oh, NZD without doubt. However, if you like, you can have it in US currency at the current exchange rate = .4445 x 9 per word ... I'd hate for you to feel insulted! 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Pooh-Bah
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>the way they use it as a tool, even when they are being poetic, and the way we treat it as a poem, even when we are using it as a tool It's an interesting thought but I'm not convinced that we every come all that close to saying something serious! I wonder if this is a bit of a cop out. Poetry and art are often claimed by the underdog. America is perceived as having more money and power so we "Europeans" claim to be more "instinsically artistic". Neither versions of English stand up very well to treatment by opera companies - Verdi still sounds better in Italian than in any English translation that I have heard. The older English of Chaucer, Shakespeare and Keats is a shared heritage and very little of its poetry have been brought forward into any of the modern variants of English. If anything, "American" is regarded, arguably, as the chosen language of popular music, particularly the music which has its origins in black culture. I don't hear great poetic oratory from either leaders of the Republicans in the USA or the Conservatives in Britain. Whatever propelled George W Bush to the top is acknowledged, even by his staunchest supporters, not to be his great public speaking voice. Here, William Hague sounds a little like a sledgehammer (personal opinion), there may be some wit but very little poetry. Both Blair and Clinton were(are) able to sound more poetic as they both claim(ed) to be able to speak for the downtrodden, regardless of whether they actually did anything about it. The best remembered poetic speeches in politics include "I have a Dream ..." http://douglass.speech.nwu.edu/king_b12.htm and "ask not what your country can do for you ..." http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/j012061.htm it may not just be about language but about the marriage of language and sentiment. "Watch my lips ... no new taxes ..." may have been a good catch-phrase but it is hardly poetry. The celts, within British culture have always claimed the upper hand in poetry. We remember Richard Burton, a Welshman, for his poetic interpretation but great English actors like Michael Caine more for his verve and sense of humour. Black British poets like Benjamin Zephaniah, like Black Americans (probably wrong current PC terms) have also been successful in claiming their right to use their own language(s) in poetry. Here is an example from Benjamin Zephania: Speak Yu teach me Air Pilots language De language of American Presidents A Royal Family Of a green unpleasant land. It is Authorised Approved Recycled At your service. I speak widda bloody tongue, Wid Nubian tones Fe me riddims Wid built in vibes. Yu dance. http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Den/3776/arg9.htmlTo me, art always has an edge of danger. That's why artists have so often been poor and oppressed. To be a true poet it helps to have very little to lose. To claim poetry in our respective "dialects" seems to be a matter of how things sound in the ear of the beholder. I instinctively dislike some of the sharp "English" voices found in forties films, yet I could listen to Whoopi Goldberg's inviting tones forever, regardless of what she is actually saying. I love the hard edged sounds of early English punk music but I can't stand the honeyed tones Barry Manilow. We all hear dialects, based on our own experience, even John Fowles.
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Verdi still sounds better in Italian than in any English translation that I have heard.
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Agreed, however there are other elements at play here. Verdi will *always* sound better in Italian than in any other language because the music and the language were designed to fit together. Any translation from the original is always hampered by the fact that it has to fit into the rhythms of the music. As such, translations of opera are rarely good translations, as they might be if it was just a straight translation of the text.
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he says "Americans can BE POETIC" whereas "English TREAT IT (language) AS A POEM
Good point, Sweet Thing. Oh my my, it is necessary, as Jo said, to realize that each person's interpretation will depend upon that person's experiences.
rkay, I am VERY glad that G.F. Handel moved to England!
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"The English of the United States is not merely different from ours; it has a restless inventiveness which may well be founded in a sense of racial discomfort, a lack of full accord between the temperament of the people and the constitution of their speech. The English are uncommunicative; the Americans are not. In its coolness and quiet withdrawal, in its prevailing sobriety, our language reflects the cautious economies and leisurely assurance of the average speaker. We say so little that we do not need to enliven our vocabulary and underline our sentences, or cry "Wolf!" when we wish to be heard. The more stimulating climate of the United States has produced a more eager, a more expansive, a more decisive people. The Americans apprehend their world in sharper outlines and aspire after a more salient rendering of it." _Pomona, or The Future of English_ by Basil de Selincourt; London, 1929
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I don't hear great poetic oratory from either leaders of the Republicans in the USA
Since you brought up political speeches, I'd have to say that most people considered both Gore's concession speech and Bush's Inaugural Address to be very good, dare I say poetic.
Some excerpts from Bush's speech:
"Through much of the last century, America's faith in freedom and democracy was a rock in a raging sea. Now it is a seed upon the wind, taking root in many nations."
"I ask you to be citizens. Citizens, not spectators. Citizens, not subjects. Responsible citizens, building communities of service and a nation of character."
"And sometimes our differences run so deep, it seems we share a continent, but not a country."
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enthusiast
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>Some excerpts from Bush's speech: ..."I ask you to be citizens. Citizens, not spectators. Citizens, not subjects. Responsible citizens, building communities of service and a nation of character."Sure he wasn't just hammering the word "citizens" for that week's Pass-the-Parcel comp? P.S. It's not the current PTP word, and I should know.
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Speech-writers are a necessary evil.
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Speech-writers are a necessary evil.
Agreed, Ms Middle America, but are heads of state?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Pooh-Bah
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>"The more stimulating climate of the United States has produced a more eager, a more expansive, a more decisive people."
Prior to my first trip to the States I received a letter from my future employer, "we are so excited that you will be joining us". I was amazed, did she know something about my magnetic personality, marketing and fund-raising skills that I hadn't fully grasped myself. Why was she excited? It really worried me. I'd never met anyone who'd been excited by the thought of a new employee before then.
In the end I realised that Americans are not uncommunicative. In its coolness and quiet withdrawal, in its prevailing sobriety, our language reflects the cautious economies and leisurely assurance of the average speaker. We say so little that we do not need to enliven our vocabulary and underline our sentences.
Even so, I am still troubled by waiting staff (I have met many of them, mainly outside the big cities) who are genuinely pleasant, and communicate with enthusiasm, even after the obligatory "have a nice day". It just doesn't seem right!
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Pooh-Bah
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>Sure he wasn't just hammering the word "citizens" for that week's Pass-the-Parcel comp?
Strange, I hadn't realised the influence of this board because our politicians are doing exactly the same thing!
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