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(check Emily Dickenson and Robert FrostAs it happens, they are already my favourite American poets - what does that say about my own languge choices? 
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Carpal Tunnel
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I am undoubtedly little qualified to discuss this problem. But one thing that I think may contribute importantly to the differences between British English and American English is the persistence in England of the social distinction attached to speaking well. wwh
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Carpal Tunnel
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The quote given, which "seems" to describe the two different approaches to the shared language, makes me feel "good" (Hi, Jackie). Aside from the order in which 'poetry' and 'tool' are placed, he says "Americans can BE POETIC" whereas "English TREAT IT (language) AS A POEM". I would say that "it" does point out (quite nicely) the serious difference, however, I'll have to get the Fowles book to find out exactly what is this "as opposed to nothing" (that distinguishes and characterizes the different ways) to which he is referring...
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Carpal Tunnel
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USD, CDN, AUD, NZD, HKD - be specific please. I have either been flattered, or gravely insulted, depending upon the currency you had in mind!Oh, NZD without doubt. However, if you like, you can have it in US currency at the current exchange rate = .4445 x 9 per word ... I'd hate for you to feel insulted! 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Pooh-Bah
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>the way they use it as a tool, even when they are being poetic, and the way we treat it as a poem, even when we are using it as a tool It's an interesting thought but I'm not convinced that we every come all that close to saying something serious! I wonder if this is a bit of a cop out. Poetry and art are often claimed by the underdog. America is perceived as having more money and power so we "Europeans" claim to be more "instinsically artistic". Neither versions of English stand up very well to treatment by opera companies - Verdi still sounds better in Italian than in any English translation that I have heard. The older English of Chaucer, Shakespeare and Keats is a shared heritage and very little of its poetry have been brought forward into any of the modern variants of English. If anything, "American" is regarded, arguably, as the chosen language of popular music, particularly the music which has its origins in black culture. I don't hear great poetic oratory from either leaders of the Republicans in the USA or the Conservatives in Britain. Whatever propelled George W Bush to the top is acknowledged, even by his staunchest supporters, not to be his great public speaking voice. Here, William Hague sounds a little like a sledgehammer (personal opinion), there may be some wit but very little poetry. Both Blair and Clinton were(are) able to sound more poetic as they both claim(ed) to be able to speak for the downtrodden, regardless of whether they actually did anything about it. The best remembered poetic speeches in politics include "I have a Dream ..." http://douglass.speech.nwu.edu/king_b12.htm and "ask not what your country can do for you ..." http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/j012061.htm it may not just be about language but about the marriage of language and sentiment. "Watch my lips ... no new taxes ..." may have been a good catch-phrase but it is hardly poetry. The celts, within British culture have always claimed the upper hand in poetry. We remember Richard Burton, a Welshman, for his poetic interpretation but great English actors like Michael Caine more for his verve and sense of humour. Black British poets like Benjamin Zephaniah, like Black Americans (probably wrong current PC terms) have also been successful in claiming their right to use their own language(s) in poetry. Here is an example from Benjamin Zephania: Speak Yu teach me Air Pilots language De language of American Presidents A Royal Family Of a green unpleasant land. It is Authorised Approved Recycled At your service. I speak widda bloody tongue, Wid Nubian tones Fe me riddims Wid built in vibes. Yu dance. http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Den/3776/arg9.htmlTo me, art always has an edge of danger. That's why artists have so often been poor and oppressed. To be a true poet it helps to have very little to lose. To claim poetry in our respective "dialects" seems to be a matter of how things sound in the ear of the beholder. I instinctively dislike some of the sharp "English" voices found in forties films, yet I could listen to Whoopi Goldberg's inviting tones forever, regardless of what she is actually saying. I love the hard edged sounds of early English punk music but I can't stand the honeyed tones Barry Manilow. We all hear dialects, based on our own experience, even John Fowles.
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Verdi still sounds better in Italian than in any English translation that I have heard.
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Agreed, however there are other elements at play here. Verdi will *always* sound better in Italian than in any other language because the music and the language were designed to fit together. Any translation from the original is always hampered by the fact that it has to fit into the rhythms of the music. As such, translations of opera are rarely good translations, as they might be if it was just a straight translation of the text.
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Carpal Tunnel
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he says "Americans can BE POETIC" whereas "English TREAT IT (language) AS A POEM
Good point, Sweet Thing. Oh my my, it is necessary, as Jo said, to realize that each person's interpretation will depend upon that person's experiences.
rkay, I am VERY glad that G.F. Handel moved to England!
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Carpal Tunnel
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OP
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"The English of the United States is not merely different from ours; it has a restless inventiveness which may well be founded in a sense of racial discomfort, a lack of full accord between the temperament of the people and the constitution of their speech. The English are uncommunicative; the Americans are not. In its coolness and quiet withdrawal, in its prevailing sobriety, our language reflects the cautious economies and leisurely assurance of the average speaker. We say so little that we do not need to enliven our vocabulary and underline our sentences, or cry "Wolf!" when we wish to be heard. The more stimulating climate of the United States has produced a more eager, a more expansive, a more decisive people. The Americans apprehend their world in sharper outlines and aspire after a more salient rendering of it." _Pomona, or The Future of English_ by Basil de Selincourt; London, 1929
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2000
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I don't hear great poetic oratory from either leaders of the Republicans in the USA
Since you brought up political speeches, I'd have to say that most people considered both Gore's concession speech and Bush's Inaugural Address to be very good, dare I say poetic.
Some excerpts from Bush's speech:
"Through much of the last century, America's faith in freedom and democracy was a rock in a raging sea. Now it is a seed upon the wind, taking root in many nations."
"I ask you to be citizens. Citizens, not spectators. Citizens, not subjects. Responsible citizens, building communities of service and a nation of character."
"And sometimes our differences run so deep, it seems we share a continent, but not a country."
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2000
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>Some excerpts from Bush's speech: ..."I ask you to be citizens. Citizens, not spectators. Citizens, not subjects. Responsible citizens, building communities of service and a nation of character."Sure he wasn't just hammering the word "citizens" for that week's Pass-the-Parcel comp? P.S. It's not the current PTP word, and I should know.
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