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I have been recently speculating about how certain key German influences could have resulted in it possibly being the dominant world language. No, I'm not referring to Nazi domination, but to an earlier time in the 18th century.
The first instance comes from the ascension of George the first to the English throne. He was a German and subsequently had little interest in England so he gave most of his limited power up to the Parliament, specifically the newly created Prime Minister. His son, George the second, had a similar opinion of the situation.
The second instance is a little later at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia. At the time the German language was spoken by a large amount of the population (Pennsylvania Dutch). When they were voting on a national language German was defeated by only one vote. I'm also told that the first draft of the Declaration of Independence (or was it the Constitution) was written in German.
So, what if the Georges had asserted their power and tried to force the German language on their subjects? What if King John had never signed the Magna Carta, thus never creating the Parliament and making it actually possible for a king to assert his power? What if one more person had decided to vote for German as the American language? Does this prove that one vote really does count? Would Australia and New Zealand followed a similar path? Would Germany have embraced democratic principles as a result? Would Germany still have tried to expand their empire in Europe? Would Archduke Ferdinand still have been shot? Would the Holocaust have ever happened? Would the Berlin Wall have never been an issue? Would communism have never spread?
And more importantly, would we all be getting "Ein Wort der Tage" (E.W.D.T.)?
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Dear Jazz: One bit of trivia I have treasured is that the first Hanoverian was the first to pronounce the name of London's river the way it still is. No smart courtier was going to correct His Majesty. Man spricht hier ein bischen Deutch. Bill Hunt
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journeyman
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Ein Wort der Tage" (E.W.D.T.)?
"Ein Wort zum Tag" E.W.Z.T. comes, perhaps, a bit closer to the A.W.A.D. meaning.
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what if the Georges had asserted their power and tried to force the German language on their subjects? The Williams tried that with Norman French from 1066 onwards. They made headway into the 'English' language with pork and beef and mutton. But not much. In the end they had to eat their words  This could be argued as an early example of democracy, or the will of the people... (but only to create debate!!  )
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The Williams tried that with Norman French from 1066 onwards.
Oh, they succeeded well enough for their purposes. The barons used Norman French and, perforce, anyone who wanted to communicate with them had to know it as well. Many English (as opposed to Norman-English) thegns were bilingual until about the time of King John when English began to overtake French even at Court. But it lingered on for many years, at least until the time of Henry V.
And as your prize for bringing up "1066 and all that", here's a little poem which I learned as a child. Now, repeat after me:
"William the Conqueror, 1066
Said to his barons
I mean to affix
England to Normandy,
Go out and borrow
some bows and some arrows
we're starting tomorrow.
So William went conquering hither and thither
Till Angles and Saxons were all of a dither.
He conquered so quickly
you could not keep count of the counties he conquered.
Ten or a dozen - or maybe a score
And I haven't a doubt he'd have conquered some more.
But death put an end to his tactics, thank heaven,
Of William the Conqueror - 1087!"
FWIW
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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In reply to:
William the Conqueror, 1066
Said to his barons
I mean to affix
England to Normandy,
And apparently, from a friend who is a Jerseyman, to this day, Channel Islanders never toast the Sovereign as King (or Queen) of England but as Duke (irrespective of gender) of Normandy.Now, how did you live so long with that gaping hole in your factoid arsenal? 
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While the Mad Max-'n'-Cap's quid-pro-quos (quids-pro-quo??) are always amusing, I'd like to return to the topic at hand if I may: What if, what if, my dear Jazzgrasshopper... I don't want to touch your logical sequence, I'll leave it to others more qualified. All I can say, and what I always say, is English reached its status because of its 'willingness' to embrace all influences. However, the Germans DID give us Christmas trees and Groundhog Day! [winking-at-Jackie emoticon]
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In the end they had to eat their words... * Indeed, Bridget! --- *I wrote an article on this once. Damn, wish I'd thought to end it that way.
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AnnaS chided ever so gently While the Mad Max-'n'-Cap's quid-pro-quos (quids-pro-quo??) are always amusing, I'd like to return to the topic at hand if I may:I'm outraged - CapK's dazzling repartee is worth much more than a mere quid ($3.38 NZ)! I will however let the slight pass, as I agree that the great strength of English has always been is shamelessly kleptomaniac nature. I was under the impression that the Hanoverian George was not the only post-Norman English monarch who did not speak English. I read somewhere that Richard Couer de Lion was also not conversant with the language of his English subjects, which may explain why he spent only a few months of his reign there. The other thing that amuses me about Richard is the apparent lack of fuss made then about his being gay. It seems that 12 Century was a much more tolerant era than the 20th, or at least an era in which it was recognised that one's sexual proclivities have little or no relevance to one's competence as a political leader. Chacun to his Geschmack
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"...because of its 'willingness' to embrace all influences." Yet, it has been suggested that English has stopped being open to influence, and American has taken its place . JazzO - To your comment about "communism" and German culture/language, given the "spread" of religion in the world...
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journeyman
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Vielen dank fuer die schon post, Jazz. I liked the questions you posted and I will send a copy of your post to my cousin along the Mosel River, to read what he has to say in answer to your questions. He loves history. Auf Wiedersehen bikermom enthusiast
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Thanks, Max, for your immoral support!
The other thing that amuses me about Richard is the apparent lack of fuss made then about his being gay. It seems that 12 Century was a much more tolerant era than the 20th, or at least an era in which it was recognised that one's sexual proclivities have little or no relevance to one's competence as a political leader.
I rather think that a king in the thirteenth century, provided he brought home the bacon, could do damned well anything he liked. Certainly our Rich was more French than English. We tend to forget than until roughly Tudor times England was pretty much a small backwater hanging off Europe and regarded as more of a nuisance in Europe than anything else. The Hundred Years War was seen in France as a side show (unless you got in the way of it, of course), and that was over 100 years later than Richard. If you read French history instead of English, you begin to get the idea. France would have been much more congenial to a man of Richard's tastes since it was the centre of elegance and nascent chivalry which England very much was not.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Cheers, CapK - did I get the century wrong? My available resources tell me that he died in 1199, that's why I said, or meant to say, 12th Century? This is very clearly your bailiwick, so I defer with puppylike eagerness as I wait for my next morsel of instruction.
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In reply to:
At the time the German language was spoken by a large amount of the population (Pennsylvania Dutch). When they were voting on a national language German was defeated by only one vote.
I'm no expert on American constitutional history but I have read that this is a myth, and that what they were voting on was to allow German to be used in official documents as well as English. Unfortunately I can't remember what my source for this was.
Bingley
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I defer with puppylike eagerness as I wait for my next morsel of instruction.
Puppy, maybe, Rottweiler, definitely. You were right, Richard I did die in 1199 during a minor seige of a nothing French castle. I was thinking about brother John when I made the comment - drinking runny mead in 1215.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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The Williams tried that with Norman French from 1066 onwards.
Oh, they succeeded well enough for their purposes. The barons used Norman French and, perforce, anyone who wanted to communicate with them had to know it as well. Many English (as opposed to Norman-English) thegns were bilingual until about the time of King John when English began to overtake French even at Court. But it lingered on for many years, at least until the time of Henry V.
I was under a vague and uninformed impression that many of them spoke Latin to each other? I'm happy to be corrected.
My main point was that an order from the top is not enough to ensure a particular language survives (cf the Academie Francaise - or on second thoughts maybe we don't want to go there again. Perhaps we could try the Vatican, whose wise citizens I understand to have been credited with the coinage 'bombus atomicus'!)
BTW, I love the poem!
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old hand
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If you forgive me to continue in the same speculative vein: If the aeroplane had been invented in 1800, possibly German would have become the "dominant world language". England had the advantage of being surrounded by water, and her ships were the main vehicle to spread her culture around the world. In the Physical Sciences, German had a very strong international position in the second half of the 19th/beginning of 20th century. As late as 1975, I taught a course of "Chemical German" to students at Imperial College in London. The course was scrapped the in the following year..
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>As late as 1975, I taught a course of "Chemical German" to students at Imperial College in London. The course was scrapped the in the following year..
You must have taught my chemistry teacher! I was told by my chemistry teacher (in about 1977) that I would have to be prepared to study German if I was to have a hope of becoming a serious chemist. I was told that all the best scientific papers were often only available in German.
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Well up until about WWII-- the Germans constituted the largest sub group in US-- (this is only if you count Irish/ Welsh/Scots/English as "Great Brittan" and one group) Even if you don't they were 4th or so. (before civil war, and influx of Irish and Italians, they were second largest ethnic group)
But i think what Wsieber has to say it important too. The language of science (and technology) is currently English this was not always so-- for a long time it was latin, long past a time when latin was commonly spoken.(isaac newton wrote his papers in latin) But as the industrial revolution continued-- Germany became the leader in chemistry-- and all important "papers" and news was written in German. A Scots (memory fails on who?) discovered coal tar-- but the germans turned coal tar into aniline dyes-- and went on to lead the world in chemistry and physics for almost 100 years!
English has a hold now but with the spread of the internet-- it might not always be so.
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In reply to:
I was under a vague and uninformed impression that many of them spoke Latin to each other? I'm happy to be corrected.
Latin was spoken by the better-educated clergy, and most literate people would have known some, but I don't think they would have used it for everyday, non-religious, purposes.
Bingley
Bingley
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I concede! I was thinking of things such as the company I used to work for. In our Spanish office the Japanese adn Spanish conversed in English - the 'lingua franca' of today. HOwever, the situation in 1067 and onwards wasn't wuite like that as there was a mass migration. More like French / English colonisation of Africa, and we can see the effects of that today.
Changing the subject, does anyone know how the worldwide numbers of (native) Spanish speakers stack up against either English or Chinese? And how the numbers are changing over time?
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veteran
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Jazz, perhaps you should take up the writing of alternative history, a classy name for fiction which depends for its plots on an alternative outcome or development to a real historical fact. I just recently read several books by an author with the somewhat improbable name of Harry Turtledove, which take as their departure point what would have been the course of U.S. history if Robert E. Lee had won the battle of Gettyburg. Such works require a lot of real scholarship as well as imagination.
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alternative history
Philip K. Dick, a science-fiction writer known for his originality (among other things, he wrote the story, entitled "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep," upon which the movie Blade Runner was based) has a very interesting book that uses as its basic premise that the Axis powers triumphed in World War II. It takes place in the US, but a US dominated by Japanese culture and Nazi ideology - it's called "The Man in the High Castle," if memory serves.
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[opinion]
Harry Turtledove: wonderful imagination... hack writer.
[/opinion]
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A Scots (memory fails on who?) discovered coal tar-- but the germans turned coal tar into aniline dyes-- and went on to lead the world in chemistry and physics for almost 100 years! No, No! (he cried in great pain) Whilst the Germans were pre-eminent in many branches of Science (Leibnitz in particular - but many others also) this one was definitely English. Coal Tar was a by-product of the Gas-making industry, so was not really "discovered" at all. In 1856, a chap named Sir William Perkins (born London, 1830) was messing around with coal tar (actually, trying to synthesise it, for some reason which I forget) and accidently produced a beautiful purple liquid which stained everything around it indelibly. As purple is a fiendishly expensive colour to produce from organic ingredients, he realised that he was on a winner. This purple was the first aniline dye. New colours were quickly developed in both England and France (which also had a well developed textile industry) Unfortunately, neither France nor Britain put enough investment into developing the production side, and the dyes were not produced in large enough quantities for the voracious textile industry, so the aniline dyes remained expensive. It was the Germans who saw the market opportunity and developed large scale production techniques. We Brits ended up (as usual  ) importing most of our synthetic dyes from Germany. For further info, read: Grierson S. (1989) Dyeing and Dyestuffs Shire Publications for a more learned treatment, try: Hardie D.W.F. & Pratt J.D. (1966) A History of the Modern British Chemical Industtry Pergammon Essays should be not more than 2000 words, to be handed in by Friday, Feb 16th
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enthusiast
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Essays should be not more than 2000 words, to be handed in by Friday, Feb 16th
OK, Professor Rhubarb, but I'm already in a quandary over a title for it. Should it be:
"The Color Purple" or "Aniline - Chemistry to Dye for"?
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I'm already in a quandary over a title for it. Should it be:
"The Color Purple" or "Aniline - Chemistry to Dye for"?
Oh, Marty !! You (and the RC, too) are encourageable!
RC--if the dyers didn't have enough money to buy vats,
did they dig ditches so they could dye in the trenches?
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enthusiast
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Oh, Marty !! You (and the RC, too) are encourageable!Tar, Jackie.
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Pooh-Bah
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Tar, Jackie.
Is this what they mean by "black humour"?
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"Black humor" !! OH, U2 are indeed encourageable and
incorrigible! Both tarred with the same brush, obviously.
If necessary, I'll get out my sack of feathers for the both of you.
Incidentally, she said, suddenly leap-frogging threads--
that reminds me of the old expression of someone being
tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail. The movie O Brother Where Art Thou had the first incident I have ever seen of anyone actually being ridden out on a rail. (Though he wasn't tarred or feathered.)
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Changing the subject, does anyone know how the worldwide numbers of (native) Spanish speakers stack up against either English or Chinese? And how the numbers are changing over time?Short answer: around 200 million Native Spanish speakers, up from maybe 150 million over the last 25 years - compared to maybe 700-1000 million Chinese speakers, and only 100 million German speakers. Long answer: see the posting on wider issues of Language Demographics http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=16487&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5
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[opinion]
Harry Turtledove: wonderful imagination... hack writer.
[/opinion]
[corroboration]Agreed.[/corroboration]
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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May I recommend to you a book about what would have happened if the Cuban Missle Crisis had not been "settled" without multiple missle launches : author, Brendan DuBois, title: "Resurrection Day," published in USA/Canada by G.P. Putnam & Sons (Penguin-Putnam Inc.) ISBN : 0-399-14498-6.
Whacking good read.
wow
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