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Isn't there a place (e.g. square, plaza, street,etc.) in London
called the Pall Mall? Is there a connection?
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Is there a connection?
Probably not, or Anu would've mentioned it. The street in London, Pall Mall, is named after the game pall-mall (via French palle maille) from Italian pallamaglio, literally 'ball mallet'. We get our word mall as in shopping mall from this, too.
Pell-mell is from French pêle-mêle < Old French pesle mesle probably a reduplication of mesle the imperative of mesler 'to mix'.
English (as well as other languages) has many examples of these rhyming pairs of words: cf. helter-skelter, Hoppelpoppel German 'scrambled egg dish'.
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"As well as other languages " I give 'kris kras', meaning about the same as 'pell mell'.
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Which is not technically rhyming, nor assonance, but the agreement of the consonant sounds... what do you call that?
Examples: kris kras, criss cross, jim-jams, tic-tac, etc
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Which is not technically rhyming, nor assonance, but the agreement of the consonant sounds
Alliteration. And reduplication.
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Of course, aliteration refers only to the repetition of the initial consonant sounds, hence the addition of 'reduplication'.
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Which is not technically rhyming, nor assonance, but the agreement of the consonant sounds
Alliteration. And reduplication.
What Faldo said. It's more than alliteration, which refers only to the initial letters. Reduplication? Maybe. But isn't there a more poetical term for it?
Last edited by The Pook; 01/02/09 11:32 AM.
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Reduplication? Maybe. But isn't there a more poetical term for it?Reduplication shows up in many languages. Either the entire morpheme is doubled with no changes, e.g., English putt-putt, kiSwahili pigapiga 'to strike repeatedly' (< piga 'to strike'), with changes, e.g., Japanese hashi-bashi 'odds and ends' (< hashi 'end; edge; tip; margin; point'), just the first part of the morpheme, or other kinds of changes, e.g., Greek leipo 'I leave', leloipa 'I left'. Then there is rhyming redpulication English hokey-pokey, Yiddish english shmenglish and ablaut reduplication English criss-cross. Reduplication is used for different things, e.g., making words plural, present-past distinction, etc. So, pell-mell is rhyming reduplication. [Addendum: there's also a rhetorical term, anadiplosis ([T]he rhetorical repetition of one or several words; specifically, repetition of a word that ends one clause at the beginning of the next.
Men in great place are thrice servants: servants of the sovereign or state; servants of fame; and servants of business. Francis Bacon
Senatus haec intellegit, consul videt; hic tamen vivit. Vivit? Immo vero etiam in senatum venit. Cicero In Catilinam ( Link.) But it's not quite the same thing.
Last edited by zmjezhd; 01/02/09 04:10 PM.
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[ quote=zmjezhd]Is there a connection?
Probably not, or Anu would've mentioned it. The street in London, Pall Mall, is named after the game pall-mall (via French palle maille) from Italian pallamaglio, literally 'ball mallet'. We get our word mall as in shopping mall from this, too.
Pell-mell is from French pêle-mêle < Old French pesle mesle probably a reduplication of mesle the imperative of mesler 'to mix'. English (as well as other languages) has many examples of these rhyming pairs of words: cf. helter-skelter, Hoppelpoppel German 'scrambled egg dish'. [/quote] Appreciate the answer, especially in light of my comment today on shilly shally being akin to dilly dally, etc. Must be a very common gramatic fun way to say things.
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Reduplication shows up in many languages. Either the entire morpheme is doubled with no changes, e.g., English putt-putt, kiSwahili pigapiga 'to strike repeatedly' Grammatical reduplication is often used in Australian aboriginal languages to indicate plurality or magnitude. For example, the place name Wagga Wagga means place of many crows. Reduplication is used for different things, e.g., making words plural, present-past distinction, etc. I knew reduplication was used in Greek to form the Perfect, but it still seems too clinical, matter of fact and grammatical a word to use for poetical nonsense where it is the sheer joy of the juxtaposed similar sounds, and not their meaning, that is the reason for doing it.
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but it still seems too clinical, matter of fact and grammatical a word to use for poetical nonsense where it is the sheer joy of the juxtaposed similar sounds
That is, I suppose, where we'll just have to disagree. Seems like the correct word for the right job. Let me know what your poetical term is when you find it.
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The current AWAD by Anu, gives an interesting comment
about Pall Mall, pell mell, and the cigarrette's pronunciation
and how it has changed since the banishment of cigarette
advertisements on American TV. Interesting how TV
influences language.
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Interesting discussion. I am benefitting.
Above mention of Wagga Wagga, in New South Wales, I think.
How about Walla Walla in Washington State???
Probably a native word.
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Speaking from personal experience I can say that the pronunciations pell-mell and paul-maul were both commonly used in the late '40s and the '50s for the cigarette brand.
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Speaking from personal experience I can say that the pronunciations pell-mell and paul-maul were both commonly used in the late '40s and the '50s for the cigarette brand. I had an aunt who smoked them, and she called them paul/maul, her husband called them pel/mel.
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Interesting discussion. I am benefitting.
Above mention of Wagga Wagga, in New South Wales, I think.
How about Walla Walla in Washington State???
Probably a native word.
Actually there is also a Walla Walla in NSW, not far from Wagga Wagga. It is also aborignal in origin. I have no idea what the etymology of the Washington Walla Walla would be. It could be a corruption of a European word like Valhalla or Voila or a native American word.
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Actually there is also a Walla Walla in NSW, not far from Wagga Wagga.
Too bad it's not in Western Australia.
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Actually there is also a Walla Walla in NSW, not far from Wagga Wagga.
Too bad it's not in Western Australia. Yes our WA state often gets confused with your WA state. Would be a nice address to have wouldn't it? Walla Walla WA.
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I wonder how many other situations there are like
Walla Walla WA?
Not exactly the same, but we have Okla City, Okla.
And New York NY or NYNY. Ne City NE . Hummmm?
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I'm quite sure that, even I, really don't know.
-ron obvious
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Not exactly the same, but we have Okla City, Okla.
And New York NY or NYNY. Ne City NE . Hummmm?
Then we have Kansas City, Missouri; Michigan City, Indiana; and, my all time favorite, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.
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