Wordsmith Talk |
About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us | |||
You are not logged in. [Log In] Wordsmith.org Forums Looking for (writers, speakers, ...) Writing Help: Capitalization Register Forums Calendar Active Threads Search Forum Help
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
#181913 - 01/21/09 05:50 AM Re: Writing Help: Capitalization [Re: Faldage]
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 107 PastorVon![]()
member![]()
member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 107
USA, North Carolina Originally Posted By: FaldageOriginally Posted By: PastorVon
But, aren't there a number of style manuals that serve as standards?
PastorVon started a sentence with a conjunction!![]()
So?! And Churchhill ended one with a preposition.
#181914 - 01/21/09 06:25 AM Re: Writing Help: Capitalization [Re: Faldage]
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067 The Pook![]()
old hand![]()
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
Tasmania Originally Posted By: FaldageOriginally Posted By: PastorVon
But, aren't there a number of style manuals that serve as standards?
There are. They don't always agree on specifics. Different publishers choose different manuals.
The Pookwife is a copy editor. She uses style manuals all the time. Government departments (which is whom she usually does work for) have standard style manuals.
#181925 - 01/21/09 12:27 PM Re: Writing Help: Capitalization [Re: PastorVon]
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 Faldage![]()
Carpal Tunnel![]()
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 Originally Posted By: PastorVonOriginally Posted By: FaldageOriginally Posted By: PastorVon
But, aren't there a number of style manuals that serve as standards?
PastorVon started a sentence with a conjunction!![]()
So?! And Churchhill ended one with a preposition.
A) It wasn't a preposition; it was the particle of a phrasal verb.
2) He was being facetious
and
Þ) It probably wasn't even Churchill.
#181948 - 01/22/09 01:17 AM Re: Writing Help: Capitalization [Re: Faldage]
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067 The Pook![]()
old hand![]()
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
Tasmania Originally Posted By: FaldageOriginally Posted By: PastorVonSo?! And Churchhill ended one with a preposition.
A) It wasn't a preposition; it was the particle of a phrasal verb.
2) He was being facetious
and
Þ) It probably wasn't even Churchill.
Are you saying it was a biographer or urban myth that puts the clause "up with which I will not put" in Churchill's mouth? (which is presumably the one in question).
And wasn't the whole point that he was deliberately NOT ending the sentence with the preposition "with" but with the verb 'put' in order to show that not only is it quite appropriate to end a sentence with a proposition, it is sometimes in fact silly not to end the sentence with it?
Last edited by The Pook; 01/22/09 01:18 AM.
#181949 - 01/22/09 03:02 AM Re: Writing Help: Capitalization [Re: The Pook]
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 Faldage![]()
Carpal Tunnel![]()
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 Originally Posted By: The PookOriginally Posted By: FaldageOriginally Posted By: PastorVonSo?! And Churchhill ended one with a preposition.
A) It wasn't a preposition; it was the particle of a phrasal verb.
2) He was being facetious
and
Þ) It probably wasn't even Churchill.
Are you saying it was a biographer or urban myth that puts the clause "up with which I will not put" in Churchill's mouth? (which is presumably the one in question).
I got it in my memory that I read somewhere that it wasn't Churchill that said it, that it was just another misattribution, not unlike all those Mark Twain, Oscar Wilde so-called quotes, but I can't find anything ot back me up.Originally Posted By: The PookAnd wasn't the whole point that he was deliberately NOT ending the sentence with the preposition "with" but with the verb 'put' in order to show that not only is it quite appropriate to end a sentence with a proposition, it is sometimes in fact silly not to end the sentence with it?
What I said about being facetious.
As far as their not being prepositions, I also seem to remember reading somewhere that there is a substantial body of linguists who believe that the modern prepositions derived from what amounted to particles of phrasal verbs. Of course, if you have enough case markers for your nouns you don't really need prepositions.
#181951 - 01/22/09 04:35 AM Re: Writing Help: Capitalization [Re: Faldage]
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 zmjezhd![]()
Carpal Tunnel![]()
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
R'lyeh As far as their not being prepositions, I also seem to remember reading somewhere that there is a substantial body of linguists who believe that the modern prepositions derived from what amounted to particles of phrasal verbs.
Many of the prepositions / verbal particles in Modern English derive from propositions in Old English (via Middle English). Some are from adjectives and adverbs: e.g., near and next are the comparative and superlative forms of the archaic adjective nigh. There is an extensive literature on prepositions / verbal particles in Old to Modern English, and if anybody is interested you can contact me at zmjezhd at-sign gmail dot com (who doesn't care who knows), and we can discuss it ...
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#181956 - 01/22/09 12:23 PM Re: Writing Help: Capitalization [Re: zmjezhd]
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 Faldage![]()
Carpal Tunnel![]()
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 I'm counting OE as modern. I'm talking back to PIE or earlier. It's all very theoretical in my Junk Drawer Memory. And five, six cases isn't near enough to obviate prepositions. You'd need probably twenty or more.
#181960 - 01/22/09 02:34 PM Re: Writing Help: Capitalization [Re: Faldage]
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 zmjezhd![]()
Carpal Tunnel![]()
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
R'lyeh And five, six cases isn't near enough to obviate prepositions. You'd need probably twenty or more.
Yes, I don't think there are any languages which have been studied on this planet which don't have prepositions. The number of cases in PIE has not been determined, IIRC, or their number has not been agreed upon. There are languages which do not have grammatical cases.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#181972 - 01/23/09 12:56 AM Re: Writing Help: Capitalization [Re: zmjezhd]
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 Faldage![]()
Carpal Tunnel![]()
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 Originally Posted By: zmjezhdThere are languages which do not have grammatical cases.
I think at this point we need to define just what we mean by case. Is it the relationship of a noun to the other elements of as sentence or is it the visible or auditory mark that indicates that difference?
#182012 - 01/25/09 02:04 AM Re: Writing Help: Capitalization [Re: Faldage]
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 107 PastorVon![]()
member![]()
member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 107
USA, North Carolina Boy! [That's an expletive, I believe.] It doesn't take much to send this group on a variety of tangents. It's all very interesting whether Churchhill did or did not end a sentence with a presposition. None of the tangents answers my question. The question was "So?" I.E. "So what if I (pastor von) began a sentence with a conjunction?"
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Moderated by Jackie
Forum Statistics Forums16Topics13,880Posts224,654Members9,045 Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members DavidOrigami, RichEngle, Stosh2010, CarolWilliamson, Farscape07
9045 Registered Users
Who's Online Now 0 registered members (), 85 guests, and 3 spiders. Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days) A C Bowden 27LukeJavan8 11
Top Posters(All Time) wwh 13,858Faldage 13,803Jackie 11,613tsuwm 10,538LukeJavan8 9,120wofahulicodoc 7,879Buffalo Shrdlu 7,210AnnaStrophic 6,511Wordwind 6,296of troy 5,400
Forum Rules · Mark All Read Contact Us · Wordsmith.org · Top