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Interesting piece on NPR's Morning Edition today. I still shudder when I hear something-or-other "sucks," and now I know why. Our man Jesse Sheidlower splains why!
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Oh my heavens to Betsy!!! If "sucks" is the most horrible thing in your universe, you would DIE in mine! LOL! All day long I hear "f---" and "sh--" and 'ni----" and "a--" and "d---", just to name four. I have heard children just learning to speak (1-3 year-olds) use the first two without batting an eyelash; indeed without even having a clue about what they were saying, only knowing it was somehow "appropriate" in the situation. And yes, the blame is squarely on the parents and older siblings. My 15 year-old just this year figured out the "c" word (I am not one of those who believes there are inherently "bad" words, but that one just makes me shudder, and I refuse to say it!), and he knows all the above, but absent hearing them at home on a daily basis, he doesn't use them at home. I'm quite sure he uses some when he's with his friends, and out of adult earshot, but so did I. I have to admit I have some affection for the "s" word, and it's the one most likely to slip out, given sufficient motivation... :0)
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Bloom :> "That's just language learning. These words have no special status as taboo words," says Paul Bloom, Ph.D., of Yale University. "Learning they're taboo words is a later step."
That's where it becomes really interesting to them.
(Hearing my three year old grandson say "what the heck!" at the appropriate moment really always pulls a laugh and he knows it; quite irresistable) that's half a year ago. By now , in preschool, he will be into the real stuff.
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Believe it or not, Bran, I have acquaintances who object to children using "heck"! One of our daycare providers always objected to "stupid" and "dang", as well. With three boys, I've given up on eradicating such words directed at each other, and also "jerk" and "idiot", but I do try to keep it to a minimum so they don't get in the habit. If they use them toward other than their brothers (not sure of the grammar there!), they know there will be an issue with me!
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The real question is : why do we curse and swear.
Everyone does it, (exept Father Steve) with this distinction that there are those who do it functionally ( the emerency curse) and those who use three curses for each normal word in a sentence.
It is part of all languages. It serves a purpose. It can derail.
Last edited by BranShea; 03/27/08 06:19 PM.
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Pooh-Bah
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When I was a kid almost all of us cursed and made bombs and drank and impregnated girls
We made South Park look like the Vatican
dalehileman
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When I was a kid almost all of us cursed and made bombs and drank and impregnated girls
We made South Park look like the Vatican heh
formerly known as etaoin...
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Dale, drat! Can't you ever just limit yourself to the subject?
This is about Jesse Sheidlower, not about Jesse James!
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You are absolutely right, Bran! I am a "functional curser", but I am also an "emphasis curser", that is, when I want to make a strong statement about something in the company of someone for whom it will be "appropriate", I will deliberately use a carefully chosen expletive. Does that make sense? LOL! :0)
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Pooh-Bah
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There was a time when swearing was situational and one of the non-swearing situations was in front of small children. I still remember the exact situation when I first heard my dad swear (for context he was born in 1913.) I was 10 or 12 and he had just seen a child my age struck by a car and was still shaking. His using a swear word in front of his wife and kids did not encourage me to swear but did emphasize how upset he was.
I realize that I was raised in a sheltered and old fashioned environment but I still find it sad that swearing is considered almost mandatory at all times and in all company.
Kids may copy their peers but it is parents who set the limits of what is acceptable, when and where. Tho' I'm not sure that claiming "we don't say that word" is helpful 5 seconds after you have just said it.
and for the record f* is not a grammatical marker indicating a noun!!
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and for the record f* is not a grammatical marker indicating a noun!! Sorry, Zed, where did "f*" come in? What does it mean? Can't "f---" be a noun or a verb, anyway? Confused here (or maybe it's just been a long day, LOL!) :0)
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my next sister (younger) was a late speaker, (age 3 almost) and spoke in sentences.. her first?
You G*d damned kids!
(i think nothing of using common vulgar words, (sh*t, f*ck, etc) that are generally avoided here.. but i really object to profanity (there is a commandment not to take the lords name in vain--but even G*d told the the devil "Go to hell!")
I always find it strange that the christian right in this country gets all up in arms when a bit of breast makes it on to TV, or when some one uses an earth vulgar word, but no objects to prize winners, (or what ever) saying "oh my G*d (i won a million dollars)...
my kids were taught some words were outside words (outside the house, outside of school, outside the car) --(mostly the vulgar words)
after my childhood, i decided not to use profanity, and while i generally limit my use of vulgar--i find vulgar less objectionable than profanity (and yes, i know, now days, vulgar is considered profanity.. but i think there is a difference..
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and for the record f* is not a grammatical marker indicating a noun!! Sorry, Zed, where did "f*" come in? What does it mean? Can't "f---" be a noun or a verb, anyway? Confused here (or maybe it's just been a long day, LOL!) :0) I believe she's referring to the participle-as-adjective. ;-) Oh, and don't get me wrong, two, I cuss like a sailor (not only because I'm married to one) in private company. It's just that "sucks" to my ears is almost as bad as the others, yet used all the time by kids today who have no idea, probably, of its provenance (did you have time to read the article?)
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It's just that "sucks" to my ears is almost as bad as the others, yet used all the time by kids today who have no idea, probably, of its provenance (did you have time to read the article?) Yes, I did, but it didn't say to me that oral sex was the origin, but I interpreted his remark differently. "There is an assumption that 'sucks' was a reference to oral sex," explains Jesse Sheidlower, editor-at-large of the Oxford English Dictionary. Some scholars debate this, but Sheidlower says perception is what matters. {emphases added} So he isn't splaining that that IS what it means, just that it's what many think it means, even if it doesn't! "Suck" [b]may sound edgy or obnoxious to middle-aged ears, but parents may be at a loss to explain why it's a bad word, especially to an 8- or 9-year-old. "It brings up a conversation you might not want to have right now," says Sheidlower. Herein lies your discomfort, I believe. "Suck" sounds, spells and spits out much like its brother, "f-ck". I think that, more than what the derivation may be, is why it bothers your ears! I found this interesting discussion on another site, which offers several alternative derivations which seem plausible: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/archive/index.php/t-5628.html :0)
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participle-as-adjective
It's an intensifier, like very from truthily, another word that has been drained of any meaning. I heard it heading in to work, and enjoyed it. I discovered as a child that one could curse in a foreign language and not upset the anglophone elders of the tribe. And I learned all the juicy vocabulary from my dear, old grandma, in Ligurian, Ponente brand.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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(there is a commandment not to take the lords name in vain--but even G*d told the the devil "Go to hell!") Technically, God isn't his name any more than human is mine. His name is יהוה and that isn't even his name, that's just the consonants in his name.
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I don't object to hearing His name in vain for the same reason I don't object to any of the common vulgar words. The speaker swears at you instead of to or in front of you. Not an improvement in my opinion.
My grammatical objection was to the use of f--- in front of every noun in a given sentence as if to mark the nouns rather than as a word with a meaning, however vulgar.
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His name is יהוה and that isn't even his name
OK, have it ya way ...
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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(i think nothing of using common vulgar words, (sh*t, f*ck, etc) that are generally avoided here.. but i really object to profanity (there is a commandment not to take the lords name in vain--but even G*d told the the devil "Go to hell!")
I always find it strange that the christian right in this country gets all up in arms when a bit of breast makes it on to TV, or when some one uses an earth vulgar word, but no objects to prize winners, (or what ever) saying "oh my G*d (i won a million dollars)... Like you, people using vulgarity doesn't bother me much (except when it's obviously intended to be offensive, or in front of children). It's actually etymologically a snobby thing - the words describing various bodily parts and functions that became impolite are the good old ordinary anglo-saxon/Old English words for those things, whilst the 'acceptable' equivalents like faeces, copulate, etc are Latin and French - the languages of academia and nobility. However, like you, I object more to profanity/blasphemy. Not so much people saying "God" since that means so many things to so many people and I figure they are just blaspheming their own god, whatever that may be, not the God I worship. Using 'Jesus' or 'Christ' as a swear word, however, is specifically offensive to Christian belief, and annoys me more.
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Zed:
Tho' I'm not sure that claiming "we don't say that word" is helpful 5 seconds after you have just said it.
No , that is leading straight towards something else: hypocracy. I think this is a good line of considering the subject: (from the article)
"I would be much quicker to jump on my kid for saying an unkind thing," says Pekkanen, "even if he used perfect language to do so." Though in spite of Socrates's wonderful pricinciple never to do harm to anyone knowingly, there are limits to our knowledge of what may be harmfull to someone else. As we can't look into the souls of our fellow mankind. * Thanks y'all in the course of this conversation for explaining to me the "supposed" origin of the word 'sucks'. Faldage: Technically, God isn't his name any more than human is mine. His name is יהוה and that isn't even his name, that's just the consonants in his name. Agree with that.Though I see no point in using any of someone elses God/Gods idly.
Last edited by BranShea; 03/28/08 07:44 AM.
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His name is יהוה and that isn't even his name
OK, have it ya way ... I yam that I yam and whats all what I yam.
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veteran
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I have always allowed my kids to curse with one exception - not in public and not in our home when younger guests are over. Ironically, my kids very seldom curse, while the kids who curse the most are those from ostensibly religious families who punish their kids for cursing.
I didn't need to read JS to know exactly where the phrase "sucks" came from.
"I would be much quicker to jump on my kid for saying an unkind thing," says Pekkanen, "even if he used perfect language to do so."
Exactly. The not forbidden, but strongly discouraged word in our house is "stupid." 'Use it sparingly and only when you mean it - and never towards anyone in this house.'
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His name is יהוה and that isn't even his name
OK, have it ya way ... heh
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ya way AUGH, another one I missed altogether! Good on you, Anna!
And...zmjezhd made a funny?! [fainting dead awa
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zmjezhd made a funny?
You jus' ain't heard me talk out loud. I make a lot of folks snicker and chortle with my thick Sonoman accent, which tends to disappear when typing.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Yes, it was a funny. (JHVH)
't Is that it is and that's just what it is.
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I yam that I yam
Yes, the Mosaic burning bush is referring to the folk etymology of the Tetragrammaton in the verb היה (HYH) 'to be', but Popeye probably knew that, or at least Segar did.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Our pronounciation is Jah-veh.(JHVH) Comes nearest to the French
j'avais. To be or to have, that's the question.
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why am I getting a feeling of jamais vu here?
-the chaplain
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As I said to our chorus director when he commented that this was the third time we've come to this part in our weekly rehearsals and it's like we'd never seen it.
It's jamais vu all over again.
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why am I getting a feeling of jamais vu here?
-the chaplain A 'rhetorical question'? As for jamais vu, I'm getting that same feeling when the sun comes up on a cloudless day. (*-*)
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formerly known as etaoin...
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jamais vu
I always thought it was spelled j'aimais vous. Oh, well, you live to learn.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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> yah vole
hare commandant?
formerly known as etaoin...
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Down or up here we put the jams on toast. Never mind. 
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Well, when I jam my toes, it hurts!!! ;0)
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diabole Ancient Greek jam session?
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