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#168490 - 05/30/07 10:08 PM animal language  
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Nanu Nanu Offline
stranger
Nanu Nanu  Offline
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Shirley, this must have been addressed. Would someone kindly advise me where I can find a thorough, conclusive discussion on the subject of the word "Language" -- in particular "human language" vs. "animal language." I know what people are saying -- opinions rather than formal explanations. Or does this wax too 'philosophical'? What is: (the referent for) "language," precisely, in unambiguous, nonjudgmental objective (!) terms that average people will accept?

θank you.

#168494 - 05/30/07 11:50 PM Re: animal language [Re: Nanu Nanu]  
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Zed Offline
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Zed  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nanu Nanu
unambiguous, nonjudgmental objective (!) terms that average people will accept?


Ain't no sech ting

PS Welcome even though someone from the ministry of truth should know better than to look for something unambiguous and objective.
or was that judgemental?

Last edited by Zed; 05/30/07 11:52 PM.
#168503 - 05/31/07 03:59 PM Re: animal language [Re: Zed]  
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Maven Offline
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Maven  Offline
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Are you asking what defines language as used by humans rather than language as used by animals? Presuming there to be a difference?


tempus edax rerum
#168511 - 05/31/07 09:24 PM Re: animal language [Re: Maven]  
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olly Offline
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olly  Offline
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Wikipedia have an interesting article on language and it's subsets.

#168580 - 06/08/07 01:48 AM Re: animal language [Re: Nanu Nanu]  
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Nanu Nanu Offline
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I have a grasp of what defines human language. I was looking for a treatment of the differences between that (language proper) and animal communication. Or, the best, most complete, most exact definition offered by and accepted by linguists, philologists, and language lovers.

The best I've found so far is by someone who actually "worked with" animals to determine their linguistic ability (inseparable from mental ability): “The Trouble with Ape-Language Studies”, by H. S. Terrace, in Psychology Today, November 1979. (He also wrote How Nim Chimpsky Changed My Mind, which I have not read.) I also found an informal discussion of the subject at http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=33598.80, which held a few noteworthy observations.

Some of the argument rests on the definition of "language." Loosely stated, language is communication. In that sense, the sun "speaks" to the earth. But there must be a technical definition also, for linguists’ sake, or else a different set of words such as "langue" and "parole". But that gets even more complicated. Linguists have offered definitions of human language. I can’t figure out why there is still uncertainty over the distinction between human language and animal communication.

So I look at it "backwards." Instead of trying to figure what people mean by "language," I’ll ask what is it that humans do when they "communicate" with one another. Then, do those activities or relationships appear also among animals when they communicate with each other? (They don't.)

"Unless one knows what one is looking for, there is nothing to find, and such knowing is not a result of objective observation." Ian Robinson.

Normal human communication consists of a set of sounds which speakers produce linearly to form syllables and morphemes (a sound signifying something meaningful) which combine to form words. Words represent concrete subjects and abstract concepts, activities, and relationships. These words are placed in various order, according to the language spoken, to form sentences.

Humans create sentences, including new ones they have never heard, to describe people, places, and things, to report on and evaluate past actions, to plan for the future, to convey thoughts, hopes, desires, to inform others of the status of relationships, to address problems and consider solutions. Humans also put words together in ways that are artistic -- intelligible songs and emotionally moving poetry. Humans also use language to make up stories and to stage plays. Humans use language to deal with cause-effect relationships. These are not what humans do independently of language; these are why language exists and how language is used.

Obviously, no animals creatively, intuitively, voluntarily combine sounds in new ways to create new words, such as “eclipse” or “onomatopoeia” or “infinity”. I know this the same way that I know there is no word in any human language for “the core of Betelgeuse”. We don’t need such a word, and the animals don’t need such words. The difference is, we can create such a word if (when) we wish. If communication is restricted to personal emotional and physical states, that communication is less than even a “primitive” language, it is no language at all. It is merely instinctive grunting (or clicking in the case of dolphins).

Nor do animals combine words to create sentences that convey new information, such as “I’ve never climbed a mountain before. Do you want to climb a mountain with me?” or, “There’s some food on your lip. Want me to lick it off for you?”

If animals had language it has been argued that it would be “primitive.” That is an overstatement. No animal can produce the rich (yes, I said rich, knowing whereof I speak) set of sounds that the human vocal organs can and do produce. If we count animals’ grunts, groans, whistles, and clicks, the humans are still ahead, because we have all those mumbles, moans, breaks and stops also, plus speech sounds in addition, which are multipled by categories of voiceless, voiced, breathy, creak, nasal, tone, length, palatalization, labialization, and others, and we combine them in new ways and with new meanings.

The wikipedia article is a sin of sloppiness and confusion (June 2007). Sorry. The writers are addressing “communication,” not true language. Their self-contradictions increase the confusion. A redeeming statement therein is “Linguists do not consider these to be language; they may better be described as animal communication, because they are fundamentally different in their underlying principles from true language, which has only been found in humans.”

I am disappointed to read in Wikipedia’s weak article that “In several publicised instances, non-human animals have been taught to understand certain features of human language. For example, chimpanzees and gorillas have been taught hand signs based on American Sign Language; however, they have never been successfully taught its grammar.” In other words, that can't 'sign' a single sentence! That is because they lack language ability, do not know what true language is, have nothing significant to say, and can only mimic, which is what they have been trained to do.

One would be hard pressed to categorize “hand signs” as a “feature of human language.” Sign language is a product of human ingenuity and creativity, a paralanguage to substitute for real language, but it is not an inherent "feature" of language proper. Genuine features of language include phonology, morphology, semantics, and syntax. Animal communication lacks these features.

(With thanks to Drs. Ohala and Ohala)

#168585 - 06/08/07 04:14 AM Re: animal language [Re: Nanu Nanu]  
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olly Offline
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I must admit Mork that your piece was a more invigorating read than the wikipedia article. Thanks for the info.

#168592 - 06/08/07 01:56 PM Re: animal language [Re: olly]  
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AnnaStrophic Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Nanu2

You might be interested in checking out Language Log at http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/

You'll find all kinds of article there. The only danger is getting lost and never emerging again!

#168605 - 06/08/07 07:13 PM Re: Fuzzy Animal Language [Re: Nanu Nanu]  
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Aramis Offline
addict
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SE US
As one owned by a talking feline, the immediate impression is that much of that smacks of elitism. It is doubtful Kitty would agree with it; clearly he knows what he is saying even if biped listeners do not have the requisite knowledge to interpret his language.


ÅΓª╥┐↕§
#168634 - 06/11/07 07:51 PM Re: Fuzzy Animal Language [Re: Aramis]  
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Maven Offline
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California
I'm not sure who you're trying to convince...But you lack the supporting evidence to convince me. elitism, indeed. To imply that sign language is not a true language indicates only your own ignorance. And yes, I know from whence I speak on that particular topic.

Last edited by Maven; 06/11/07 10:42 PM.

tempus edax rerum
#168636 - 06/11/07 07:57 PM Re: Fuzzy Animal Language [Re: Maven]  
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of troy Offline
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rego park
sign language is language.
it has grammer, and nuance.
there are more than one set of sign languages, and some are less well developed than ASL (which as i recall is based on French SL.)
one can make puns, and idiom, there is slang.. ASL has every feature of language.

some south american SL are more like pidgeons, but pidgeons are languages too!

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