Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#163906 12/01/06 04:40 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Hydra Offline OP
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Quote:

Je Est un Autre




Can anyone translate this for me? Doesn't it mean "I (The Self?) is an Other"?

From Rimbaud.

#163907 12/01/06 10:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
That's what it looks like to this Foremost Fumbler of French. there are certainly others here better suited than I to offer you edification.

#163908 12/01/06 05:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,773
D
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
D
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,773
Translation: But I'm just Gene Autry

Forgive


dalehileman
#163909 12/01/06 06:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Hydra, when I saw your subject line, before reading your post, I also thought of Gene Autry!

There's a set of nursery rhymes, written in faux French (or is it Latin?) but when read aloud sounds like English -- anybody know what I'm talking about?

#163910 12/01/06 07:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 293
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 293
Hydra,
From High-School French and a few trips abroad I agree that the literal translation is: I am the (an) other.

According to BabelFish , it is "I Is another"*

Dalehileman; Thanks for the laugh-out-loud

*Although, according to French rules of Grammar, the "e" in "Je" must be dropped. The proper way to say, "I am" in French is "J'est".

Last edited by ParkinT; 12/02/06 02:47 PM.

"I am certain there is too much certainty in the world" -Michael Crichton
#163911 12/01/06 08:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Mots d'Heures, Gousses, Rhames by Luis d'Antin van Rooten.

Un petit d'un petit
S'étonne au hall
Un petit d'un petit
Ah! degrés de folles
Un dol de qui ne sort cesse
Un dol de qui ne se mène
Qu'importe un petit d'un petit
Tout Gai de Reguennes.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#163912 12/02/06 12:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Quote:

Hydra,
From High-School French and a few trips abroad I agree that the literal translation is: I am the (an) other.

According to BabelFish , it is "I Is another"




I am an other would be je suis un autre. This has got to be a usage of Je for something like Freud's Ego (das Ich).

#163913 12/02/06 02:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 293
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 293
Quote:

Quote:

Hydra,
From High-School French and a few trips abroad I agree that the literal translation is: I am the (an) other.

According to BabelFish , it is "I Is another"




I am an other would be je suis un autre. This has got to be a usage of Je for something like Freud's Ego (das Ich).



I disagree. The verb "suis" means "to have", does it not?
It is proper in French to state your age by saying, "Je suis douze ans" (I have 12 years). But, the French verb 'etre' (to be) is conjucated as Je est (and properly becomes J'est).


"I am certain there is too much certainty in the world" -Michael Crichton
#163914 12/02/06 03:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
The verb "suis" means "to have", does it not?

You might want to consult a French grammar. The verb être 'to be' is conjugated in the present indicative:

je suis
tu es
il est
nous sommes
vous êtes
ils sont

The verb avoir 'to have' is in the present indicative:

j'ai
tu as
il a
nous avons
vous avez
ils ont


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#163915 12/02/06 05:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 74
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 74
What is the context of this text? If it is from an old French text, then "je est" might be grammatically correct (modern usage is "je suis"). If it is a philosophy text, then some of the abovementioned translations might be more likely.

BTW, the translation for "I am 12 years old" (J'ai douze ans) does indeed literally mean "I have 12 years"; but the verb for have is avoir.

#163916 12/02/06 06:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Suis derives from the Latin sum. Je est was never grammatically correct.

#163917 12/02/06 06:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
What is the context of this text?

It is from a 19th century letter written by Arthur Rimbaud. Here's the context.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#163918 12/02/06 08:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Hydra Offline OP
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Quote:

What is the context of this text?




It looks like someone has identified a letter by Rimbaud; however, I ran into these words in a poem (a strangely paranoid poem) by Lawrence Durrell.

Quote:

Je Est un Autre

'Je Est un Autre'

—Rimbaud.

He is the man who makes notes,
The observer in the tall black hat
Face hidden in the brim:
He has watched me watching him.

The street-corner in Buda and after
By the post-office a glimpse
Of the disappearing tails of his coat,
Gave the same illumination, spied upon,
The tightness in the throat.

Once too meeting by the Seine
The waters a moving floor of stars,
He had vanished when I reached the door,
But there on the pavement burning
Lay one of his familiar black cigars.

The meeting on the stairway
Where the tide ran clean as a loom:
The betrayal of her, her kisses
He has witnessed them all: often
I hear him laughing in the other room.

He watched me now, working late,
Bringing a poem to life, his eyes
Reflect the malady of De Nerval:
O useless in this old house to question
The mirrors, his impenetrable disguise.

—Lawrence Durrell.



#163919 12/02/06 09:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Arthur -- Autre. C'mon, guys, you need a good punster here:

I am an Arthur.

I am an Author?

This was actually written by his brother Jason, about whom it can be said he's always Jason Rimbauds.


TEd
#163920 12/03/06 01:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Quote:

... you need a good punster here




I agree. Know any?

#163921 12/09/06 06:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Quote:

What is the context of this text?

It is from a 19th century letter written by Arthur Rimbaud. Here's the context.




VQR » "RIMBAUD" EST UN AUTRE... his rendering of Rimbaud's mostfamous epiphany—familiar to most English readers even in its French original: JE est un autre—feels particularly clumsy. ...
www.vqronline.org/articles/2004/winter/grotz-rimbaud-autre/ - 37k - In cache - Gelijkwaardige pagina's


A little late, but lots of information.

Last edited by BranShea; 12/09/06 06:58 PM.
#163922 12/10/06 12:31 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 500
E
addict
Offline
addict
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 500
Quote:

The verb "suis" means "to have", does it not?

You might want to consult a French grammar.




Or a Canadian. Many of us speak some French, even if only the cereal-box variety. Definitely "Je suis", not "J'est", unless the lovely BelMarduk can enlighten us as to some idiom we sesquilinguals are missing.

#163923 12/10/06 01:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Zemhjzd has the right context.

'La formule est paradoxale et même, semble-t-il, contradictoire puisqu’elle identifie le sujet, le moi, c’est à dire le pôle d’identité de la personne avec son contraire « un autre », indéfini, et étranger.'

Loosely translated:'The formula is a paradox and even, it seems, contradictory because she (it) identifies the subject, the me , which means the antithesis of the person, with his opposite << someone else >>, non defined, and a stranger.'

Je est un autre then will be : I is someone else . (Split personality? )

Still pretty heavy philosophic, but then:

'When he who hears doesn't understand him who speaks, and when he who speaks doesn't understand what he himself means - that is philosophy.
-Voltaire

#163924 12/12/06 03:39 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,529
T
veteran
Offline
veteran
T
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,529
Quote:

Can anyone translate this for me? Doesn't it mean "I (The Self?) is an Other"?






Yes, I can. If any of you give a damn then you must know who it is that is giving a swinging damn. Is it your lingual self? That outward self of sensory information who exchanges information and action with the external world or is the self who directs his fleshy robot into mindless actions?

If you forget a name who is it that recalls that name while you are busy interacting with the outside world? Huh?
And who does the dreaming while you are asleep?

Think a bit. Are you merely a biological extention of a self that is you but doesn't speak in words but in biological imperatives?

Or is the we who are but operatives of our own sub-conscious who is the we?

I think maybe yes.

I hope that you all understand and that we, of the cognitive bent, do too.

Last edited by themilum; 12/12/06 03:50 AM.
#163925 12/12/06 08:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
I guess I know what you mean. We all have these two; the one who percieves, classifies and acts and the one who on a deeper level directs our actions and thinking more than we often would be willing to admit.
The part that creates the dreams when we sleep or half sleep.
(split personality was just a feeble joke, sorry).
Seeing it in French and isolated from the rest of the poet's letter made it maybe a bigger mystery than it is.

Speaking of driving forces, I did not mean to make this post as my early morning good sense told me there are lots of things to be done and yet I do. Your post touching the essense of the little phrase.

#163926 12/26/06 02:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
B
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Awwww. Here I get busy with work for a couple, or nine , weeks and you discussed a subject that I could have had an authoritative answer for, and y'all get on positively well without needing me at all - with accents and everything no less.


Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,743
W
Carpal Tunnel
Online Content
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,743
Quote:

Mots d'Heures, Gousses, Rhames by Luis d'Antin van Rooten.

Un petit d'un petit
S'étonne au hall
Un petit d'un petit
Ah! degrés de folles
Un dol de qui ne sort cesse
Un dol de qui ne se mène
Qu'importe un petit d'un petit
Tout Gai de Reguennes.



C'mon, all you punsters, where are you?!

It's been done in German, too - see this little volume of Morder-Guss-Reims by Leberwurst

#163928 12/26/06 09:57 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,529
T
veteran
Offline
veteran
T
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,529
A machine translation

A small one of a small one
ASTONISHES ITSELF to the lobby
A small one of a small one
Ah! degrees of crazy ones
A dol of that does not go out stops
A dol of that does not take itself, That
Imports a small one of a small one
All Cheerful one of Reguennes.


Yes, now it all makes perfect sense.

"AH yes! The degrees of crazy ones."

#163929 12/26/06 11:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Quote:



Yes, now it all makes perfect sense.




Ah, those crazy French.

#163930 12/28/06 05:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 293
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 293
Quote:

Quote:



Yes, now it all makes perfect sense.




Ah, those crazy French.



"Why do you think I have this outrageous accent?"
[ -- Monty Python and the Holy Grail ]


"I am certain there is too much certainty in the world" -Michael Crichton
#163931 12/28/06 06:34 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 456
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 456
"I is Another"

Maybe it is a psychological aberration, like the polar opposite of solipsism.


ÅΓª╥┐↕§
#163932 12/29/06 02:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
B
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Quote:

Ah, those crazy French.




Heyy!!!

Um.

Well.

O.k., maybe we're a little coo-coo puffs.

Last edited by belMarduk; 12/29/06 02:45 AM.
Hydra #192515 08/14/10 10:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1
B
stranger
Offline
stranger
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1
It is actually used in Biblical French, it is often the way that Christ is represented as
"The I AM." Veiled religious themes come out in Rimbaud's work here and there.

The Je-Est is a reference to the Luciferean Christ of mythology, the trickster, the clown Loki,
and in a way a bridge between west and near-east religious symbols. A Lucky-Fire is in
Islamic astrology Alligafir - or Venus. Venus is the "morning star" and Christ is known to have said "Yea Verily I am the Morning Star" The clown is in many languages a pun on Crown, and kingship - and is the quality of this character, this Clown - known to us as Bozo.

In the Turkish language Bozo means I Am.

Oddly the question asked of Lucifer in the Bible is "How art thou fallen O Star of the Morning?"

This revelation really changes the nature of the father-son relationship we are all so familiar with.

For an even more paranoid look into Je Est Un Autre - there is a much longer version of it
going around the Usenet, posted by MadCap - it is an Mp3 - sounds a bit like Durrell, it been put to music. Searching the lyrics got me here. There is a reference in that version saying bluntly that Shelley (and Byron) were murdered. Did Dr. Polidori fix them too stiffly?

BoZo #192517 08/15/10 12:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,818
Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,818
Likes: 1
Tho' you found a really old thread to cling on to, or add to,
welcome nonetheless.


----please, draw me a sheep----
BoZo #192520 08/15/10 12:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
In the Turkish language Bozo means I Am.

I don't think so. The copula in Turkish is olmak 'to be', but it doesn't show up in the present indicative. One way to say 'I am' in Turkish is ben 'I'.

As for biblical French, do you have a particular translation in mind, and if so, could you cite some chapter and verse?


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Jackie 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,904
Posts228,133
Members9,151
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
typewriter33, Zekiye, silvercity_becky, gonekrazzzy, accCngrssMRA
9,151 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (wofahulicodoc), 108 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
tsuwm 10,542
LukeJavan8 9,818
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2022 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5