Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#161133 - 07/21/06 12:20 AM We, meaning we here, Are the Honorable People.  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,529
themilum Offline
veteran
themilum  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,529
Aladamnbama the most watered s...
Quote:

ARYAN and Iran

ETYMOLOGY: From Sanskrit rya-, noble, Aryan.

OTHER FORMS: Ary·an —ADJECTIVE

WORD HISTORY:It is one of the ironies of history that Aryan, a word nowadays referring to the blond-haired, blue-eyed physical ideal of Nazi Germany, originally referred to a people who looked vastly different. Its history starts with the ancient Indo-Iranians, Indo-European peoples who inhabited parts of what are now Iran, Afghanistan, and India.

Their tribal self-designation was a word reconstructed as *arya– or *rya–. The first of these is the form found in Iranian, as ultimately in the name of Iran itself (from Middle Persian rn (ahr), “(Land) of the Iranians,” from the genitive plural of r, “Iranian”). The variant *rya– is found unchanged in Sanskrit, where it referred to the upper crust of ancient Indian society. These words became known to European scholars in the 18th century.

The shifting of meaning that eventually led to the present-day sense started in the 1830s, when Friedrich Schlegel, a German scholar who was an important early Indo-Europeanist, came up with a theory that linked the Indo-Iranian words with the German word Ehre, “honor,” and older Germanic names containing the element ario–, such as the Swiss warrior Ariovistus who was written about by Julius Caesar.

Schlegel theorized that far from being just a designation of the Indo-Iranians, the word *arya– had in fact been what the Indo-Europeans called themselves, meaning something like “the honorable people.” (This theory has since been called into question.) Thus “Aryan” came to be synonymous with “Indo-European,” and in this sense entered the general scholarly consciousness of the day.




Any of you Awaders differ with Schegel?

#161134 - 07/21/06 01:43 AM Re: tibi perdemus  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel
zmjezhd  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
R'lyeh
Etymology has little to do with biology, other than sharing a morpheme. One's language has little to do with one's DNA. Schlegel's connection of Sanskrit arya with Greek aristos is not without its problems. It is usually regarded as being cognate with the root in the new name of Persia, Iran. Iran was chosen mainly because the Pesians wished to distance themselves from Arabs. The only folks I know of today who speak of Aryans are South Asians and white supremicists. So, not sure what this is all about, but since Freidrich Schlegel died in 1829, he must've been ouijaing from beyond the grave.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#161135 - 07/21/06 01:05 PM Re: tibi perdemus  
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
of troy Offline
Carpal Tunnel
of troy  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
rego park
ideas can become 'contaminated'.(and word and symbols can become associated with ideas, and suffer contamination too.

the broken cross was used by various cultures, with various meaning for milenium.

but since the 1930's, when it became know as a swaztica, it took on a new, and very specific meaning. (a very negitive one)

i recognize when i see ancient artifacts decorated with broken crosses/swazticas, that the design has nothing to do with nazi's--in this context, i see it as a neutral symbol
but i don't general find the same symbol to be neutral in a modern setting.-its its still being used in a negative context. (and while WWII predate my living memory, i know many WWII veterains, and grew up very conscous of the meaning of the symbol)

what ever its roots, aryan, too is a work that has a long history, but for the past 70 years, it has been tarnished.

will the word return to a more general meaning. i suppose, in time.

#161136 - 07/21/06 02:42 PM Re: tibi perdemus  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 8
newbee Offline
stranger
newbee  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 8
Well same symbols may hold different meaning in different cultures "Swastika" is a very holy symbol in Hinduism,and when one is talking about hinduism the idea of broken cross simply DONT stand as hindu culture and its symbols etc are all thousands of years old and christianity is only 2000 yrs old.........

I dont know much about Aryans but in india it is considered that they were the outsiders which settled at northern parts of subcontinent and created holy scriptures(The Vedas)........

#161137 - 07/21/06 03:44 PM Re: fylfot  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel
zmjezhd  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
R'lyeh
Etymology of Sanskrit svastika from svasti 'well-being' (from su- 'good' (cf. Greek eu-) + asti 'it is' (cf. Latin est, German ist)) + -ka suffix. The adopted it from the Indians.

As for the Aryan Invasion Theory (as it is known): it still has its adherents and its detractors. The problem is that many Hindu nationalists find the theory of the invasion of India by Indo-European-speaking people distatseful. Most Indo-Europeanists (linguists and archaeologists) today think that the Indo-European languages came from somewhere in the Asian steppes.

There's a different set of words (Arian and Arianism) that has nothing to do with language and/or race. It was an early heresy which the Catholic Church combatted, and was named after the person, Arius, who invented it. Bishop Ulfilas, who translated some of the books of the New testament in Gothic, was supposed to have been an Arianist, like many of the Goths.

[Added third paragraph.]

Last edited by zmjezhd; 07/21/06 03:51 PM.
#161138 - 07/21/06 04:21 PM Re: fylfot  
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
AnnaStrophic Offline
Carpal Tunnel
AnnaStrophic  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
lower upstate New York
Fascinating stuff, Nuncle, thanks!!

fylfot?

#161139 - 07/21/06 04:46 PM Re: fylfot  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel
zmjezhd  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
R'lyeh
fylfot?

A synonym for swastika. BTW, the Nazis called it a Hakenkreuz (literally, 'crook cross'). This was translated as svastika in English.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
#161140 - 07/24/06 01:01 PM Re: fylfot  
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Jackie Offline
Jackie  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Louisville, Kentucky
Well, rats: maahey had a wonderful post about this, but of course it was on the old board and I can't link to it. The best I could do was this partial quote from the list:
Re: The swastika -- grounds for a lawsuit Miscellany maahey 02/06/03 12:30 PM
I must disagree TEd. There is nothing like an Aryan nation. There never has been in history even. The Third Reich interpretation was one put out by a bunch of impostors and poseurs. AS such, there cannot be affectations. The Swastika as used by the Nazis


When I tried going to her name and "Show all user's posts", I found it only gave me the last 200 posts--and of course the one I wanted was prior to that. [frustrated e]

#161141 - 07/25/06 01:03 AM Re: tibi perdemus  
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Bingley Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Bingley  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Jakarta
Quote:

Well same symbols may hold different meaning in different cultures




Indeed. I was somewhat put about when I first went to Singapore in the mid 1980s to find the red swastika association, which then was the equivalent of the red cross but based on traditional Chinese medicine.

There is also a Red Swastika school: http://www.redswastika.moe.edu.sg/


Bingley

Moderated by  Jackie 

Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,879
Posts224,218
Members9,033
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
Joyous, Amylzirklern, brork, santo, piostylist
9033 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 49 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters(All Time)
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
tsuwm 10,538
LukeJavan8 9,056
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2017 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.033s Queries: 13 (0.012s) Memory: 2.7124 MB (Peak: 2.8376 MB) Zlib disabled. Server Time: 2017-12-11 17:10:01 UTC