|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4
stranger
|
OP
stranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4 |
The word "orthocousin" describes cousins whose related parents are of the same sex. My brother's children and mine are orthocousins since we're both male. My sister's children and mine are not. Is there a word for cousins whose related parents are of opposite sexes? I've now got an anthropologist on our campus wondering too, so for the help of our curiosity bumps, HELP! By the way, this all started with a discussion of the meaning of the prefixes ortho-, para-, and meta-.
George F. Feissner
Math. Dept.
SUNY College at Cortland
Cortland, NY 13045
George F. Feissner
Math. Dept.
SUNY College at Cortland
Cortland, NY 13045
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
welcome, George!
boy, that's a rare word. barely shows up on Google, and I couldn't find it in any of the usual dictionaries. tsuwm needs to take a gander.
so what's the antonym of ortho?
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4
stranger
|
|
OP
stranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4 |
I guessed heterocousin, but that's not in the OED. Ortho seems to mean "right, proper, correct, normal" as in "orthodox". Meta suggests a change (in place, order, condition, or nature), while Para suggests variation, simulation, a subsidiary relationship, or even a perversion (task of the day: drop parabaptism into a conversation). I guess the above is a prolix way of saying I don't know what the opposite of ortho is.
George F. Feissner
Math. Dept.
SUNY College at Cortland
Cortland, NY 13045
George F. Feissner
Math. Dept.
SUNY College at Cortland
Cortland, NY 13045
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
yeah, I ran into hetero in a search, too. also "caco" meaning bad. of course, there's always "unortho" but...
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I was an anthro major time back way back. We never used the term orthocousin. The term we used for what you're calling orthocousins was parallel cousins. The other term was cross cousins.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Welcome, George; the on-line Compact Oxford English Dictionary gives these def.'s:
ortho-
• combining form 1 straight; rectangular; upright: orthodontics. 2 correct: orthography.
— ORIGIN from Greek orthos ‘straight, right’.
meta-
(also met- before a vowel or h)
• combining form forming words referring to: 1 a change of position or condition: metamorphosis. 2 position behind, after, or beyond: metacarpus. 3 something of a higher or second-order kind: metalanguage.
— ORIGIN from Greek meta ‘with, across, or after’.
para-
(also par-)
• prefix 1 beside; adjacent to: parathyroid. 2 beyond or distinct from, but comparable to: paramilitary.
— ORIGIN from Greek para ‘beside, beyond’. Goodness gracious--aren't you glad you don't have to learn these?: http://www.saskschools.ca/curr_content/creeunit/possessive_form_cousins.htmHmm--looks like the antonym of orthocousin may in fact be cross cousin; see the second paragraph: http://ourancestry.com/cousins.html
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Welcome George - thanks for introducing a whole new bunch of terminology to me at least!
> Agrees with what the inestimable Faldage said
Great site - thanks TEd. But surely it only half agrees with m'inestimable friend? It says that ortho-cousins describes those children born to a pair of same-sex siblings, and cross-cousins are those born to a brother and sister, surely?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
yes, OED2 has ortho-cousin listed under ortho- n. Anthropol. = parallel cousin s.v. PARALLEL 4a. >> 4. a. parallel cousin = ortho-cousin (ORTHO 1).
1936 R. FIRTH We, the Tikopia vi. 221 The differentiation between cross-cousin and parallel cousin is certainly not one of the outstanding features of the Tikopia kinship system. 1949 F. EGGAN in M. Fortes Social Struct. 124 Parallel cousins are treated as siblings, whereas cross~cousins are differentiated. 1970 E. LEACH Lévi-Strauss 121 A parallel cousin..is a cousin of the type ‘mother's sister's child’ or ‘father's brother's child’. 1972 [see ortho-cousin s.v. ORTHO- 1].
>>cross-cousin, one of two cousins who are the children of a brother and a sister respectively; also attrib. in cross-cousin marriage
going back to ortho-, this gives some insight into how there came to be two terms for this one:
1918 J. G. FRAZER Folk-lore in Old Test. II. II. vi. 98 It has become customary to call the marriageable cousins cross-cousins, because..the related parents are of opposite or cross sexes. There has hitherto been no special name for the unmarriageable cousins, the children of two brothers or of two sisters, but for convenience I propose to call them *ortho-cousins to distinguish them from cross-cousins. In the case of ortho-cousins the related parents are of the same sex. 1932 Brit. Jrnl. Psychol. Jan. 265 All ortho-cousins are forbidden, while cross-cousins are considered suitable mates. 1972 D. DAVIES Dict. Anthropol. 141 Ortho-Cousin, a term little used now,..can be a synonym for parallel cousin..or for a parallel cousin of the same unilineal descent..group as the person concerned.
as we've often seen here, neologisms don't automatically generate universal favor.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
>Great site - thanks TEd. But surely it only half agrees with m'inestimable friend? It says that ortho-cousins describes those children born to a pair of same-sex siblings, and cross-cousins are those born to a brother and sister, surely?
Isn't that what Faldage said? I interpreted his post to mean that ortho-cousins are the children of two brothers or two sisters and that cross-cousins are the children of brother and sister.
Among other things I found very interesting in this exercise that there is such a huge disparrity in Ghits between orthocousin and ortho-cousin.
But I'm still trying to figure out what the heck difference it makes if you and that other person are ortho-cousins or cross-cousins. For what possible reason could there be a distinction. I would have been less surprised to see that there were different designations for boy-cousins and girl-cousins.
TEd
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
I went back and looked at a website or two and found this:
The type of cousin-ness can be important in terms of heredity and consanguinity if first cousins marry.
I don't agree with this at all. If person A and person B are first cousins, they share one set of grandparents, whether the sibling parents are male or female. Consequently, the genetic contributions of the grandparents is going to be the same regardless of the "type of cousin-ness."
Unless there is something about genetics and eugenics (in the positive sense of the word of course) that has changed since I took a course in genetics back in the dark ages.
While this is taking a wonderful word thread and possibly diverting it to things non-word related, I guess it's OK because I am asking why the words exist at all.
If someone wants to take this discussion to private messages feel free to do so.
TEd
TEd
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Well, what Fong aptually said was "We never used the term orthocousin" - but tsuwm's OED quote cleared up the twin terminology anyway.
The site you initially referenced, TEd, gave the same info on genetics, noting that their source material was old fashioned and had been superceded by more modern research based on DNA spread.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176
member
|
|
member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176 |
I don't agree with this at all. If person A and person B are first cousins, they share one set of grandparents, whether the sibling parents are male or female. Consequently, the genetic contributions of the grandparents is going to be the same regardless of the "type of cousin-ness."
Consider there are certain traits passed on from mother to daughter via mitochondrial inheritance. If Female1 (with mitochondrial DNA A) (F1a) and Male1 (with mitochondrial DNA B) (M1b) have three children, two girls and one boy, all of the children will have mitochondrial DNA A: in other words F2a, F3a, and M2a.
If F2a and F3a have children with non-related males, who have mitochondrial DNA y and z, respectively, (M3y and M4z) their children will still have mitochondrial DNA A.
If M2a, the one brother of F2a and F3a, has children with a non-related female, with mitochondrial DNA X, M2a’s children will have X mitochondrial DNA and not A.
Further consider that if 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th cousins, etc., who all have mitochondrial DNA A, and a history of a trait being passed via mitochondrial inheritance, get married and have children, the children will get a double dose, so to speak of the trait.
I’m not sure, but I think mutation would lessen the trait as the generations progressed though.
That written, mitochondrial inheritance wouldn’t exclusively relate to orthocousins though. Nevertheless, one would think that there should be a term for mitochondrially related cousins.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
Not a bit of this was touched upon when I took genetics back in 1965 or 66. I can see from what you say there is importance in the ortho/cross cousin differentiation. It also makes one think about those societies that were ()or are I guess) matrilinear. Like they knew something!
TEd
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 500
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 500 |
I'm wondering if the forbidden-marriage thing had something to do with ideas of where babies came from? There was, for example, a theory that the child actually came from the man, and the woman was no more than a place to grow it. In light of that, cross-cousins wouldn't be considered related, as their fathers would be different. But then ortho-cousins whose mothers were sisters should also be OK...hmmmm....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Consider there are certain traits passed on from mother to daughter via mitochondrial inheritance
If these traits are passed from mother to doughter why would this affect males? Seems like the only marriagges we should disallow are marriages between dughters of sisters. And even then I shouldn't think we'd need worry about their children.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 500
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 500 |
Did we know about mitochondrial DNA in the 60s? I remember reading genetics texts in 1967 that showed white and black guinea pigs having different combinations of white and black babies. Later I bred angora rabbits and realized how many colours hide behind dominant black and albinism. Those damn guinea pigs lied!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176
member
|
|
member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176 |
If these traits are passed from mother to doughter why would this affect males? Seems like the only marriagges we should disallow are marriages between dughters of sisters.
Writing in regards to mitochondrial inheritance only, as I understand it, mitochondrial DNA is passed by the mother to all of her children, male and female. Only the daughters, however, can pass the mitochondrial DNA on; the males cannot. Nevertheless, it is possible for a male and a female who share the same matrilineal great, great, great, great, great (etc.) grandmother, but descended through different matrilineal lines, i.e., through different daughters of the original matriarch, to have the same mitochondrial DNA. But, as I mentioned earlier, mutation would become more and more evident as the generations progressed.
Apropos: if I’m not mistaken, recent research into the pace of mutation in mitochondrial DNA, by testing a broad cross-section of humans, indicates that there was a dramatic decrease in the world population of Homo sapiens, at some point in the not-too-distant evolutionary past, from millions, down to a few thousand (or perhaps less than a thousand – I’d have to look it up). I’m probably wrong, but I think the research indicates that the decrease happened around 65,000 years ago.
genetics texts in 1967 that showed white and black guinea pigs having different combinations of white and black babies. Later I bred angora rabbits and realized how many colours hide behind dominant black and albinism. Those damn guinea pigs lied!
Hello, Elizabeth, and welcome!
If I recall correctly, the recessive gene traits account for your “in living color” bunnies.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 500
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 500 |
It's not just recessive traits, Dgeigh, it's that we track five different genes in rabbits - Agouti/non-agouti, Black/brown, colour distribution, dilution, extension. I once had three black rabbits, one of whom was black, one white and one red. Disraeli expressed the black dominant gene. Lily was genetically black (which I knew because when I bred her to a brown buck, she produced black babies), but expressed the gene for albinism, so looked white. Jonquil was genetically black, but had the extension gene that said "all this eumelanin will be phaeomelanin" - translation, black colour will become yellow(red). So he looked red, although genetically he was black. It could take me five generations to be sure of some colours in a particular bunny, especially when some things didn't show up until the bunny was three or four years old (like "steel" - white tipping on black). Oh, yeah - I know a lot about colour in bunnies and sheep, and I know that if you breed two black rabbits, two white rabbits, or one black and one white, there's no telling what you'll get, at least the first time out. So I repeat - those texts lied, because they never showed all that recessive stuff.
But it was fun, and I liked the bunnies.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
I read an interesting book on this topic recently, but I couldn't remember the title. A friend kindly reminded me. Since his email mentioned a few other books that may be of interest, I've quoted the relevant paragraph in full. I have assumed his permission to do this. Another book, which I only perused, "Guns, Germs and Steel," by Jared Diamond, suggests that the claim of the importance of matrilineal (mitochondrial) DNA has been *somewhat* debunked, but the passage concerning this did not say how, who, or why.
The book I think you are referring to is called "The seven daughters of Eve." by Brian Sykes. I don't remember recommending it as I have not actually read this particular book. Related reading that I do know is "The Journey of man" by Spencer wells which traces the human Diaspora via the Male chromosome rather than mDNA. For technical reasons (which he explains) you get a finer detail from this method. His book is rather popular, a companion to a PBS offering but still informative and a quick read. And if you haven't read it already "Genome" by Matt Ridley is a superb overall look at what our genes can tell us about our evolutionary past and well worth reading (as are any of his other books. for example I just finished "The agile gene" his latest, which is an stimulating philosophical discussion of the current academic wars over nurture versus nature. The original title in England was "Nature via Nurture" by for obscure reasons the American publisher decided to change it.)
"Seven Daughters" attempts establish seven major genetic populations globally, by tracing their mitochondrial DNA to seven women descended from a single woman who passed out of -- is it the "Horn" of Africa -- perhaps (and I may be mistaken) 200,000 years ago. That there were 7 women is arrived at by deduction, and, in that since, they are only hypothetical. However, if the theory is true, seven such women did actually exist, and we are each decended from one of them. It is like the question of who Homer was: Homer was whoever wrote "The Odessy." A question which, differently phrased, is similar in form, is not analogous to "Who wrote Shakespeare?" But I digress.
Speaking of drama, urgency is added to deliberations by imprisonment: I speak of the jury's own.
Edit: "Seven Daughters" was published in 2001; "Guns, [etc.]" was published in 1997
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,334
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
1 members (1 invisible),
723
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
