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Pooh-Bah
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Now, that sure sounds like the setup to a punch line, but according to this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4328733.stmthey speak with the very same accent. So, how 'bout it, those of you in the know? (Mav? Avy?)
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yes, a lot of phonological similarities between at least some varieties of each language. Actors are known to slip slightly easily between a poor rendition of both :) I was unaware of the morphemic similarities like naw, but in a way they seem much less surprising than similar sound systems and rhythms.
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Wow, that IS intriguing, Sparteye. professor Colin Williams of Cardiff University's School Of Welsh, who specialises in comparative languages.
He suggested that the similarities are because they come from the same mother language - the proto-European language. This makes me wonder a couple of things. First, is it only Welsh that shares such a close bond w/ Hindi? Many different languages have many words that are very similar. However, if it is only Welsh (and it sounds like it might be) that has this close a tie, then there must be more explanation than simply sharing a root language. So--was the Hindi-speaking part of India settled (ARGH, the word ruled gets my goat!) by Welshmen, or what? ************************************************************ Rats--I had a vague memory that maahey, that awesome person (where are you??), had made a post about language in India; I found the one I was looking for, and it isn't really about language s, but I'll put the link anyway because it's so interesting: http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=95585
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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was the Hindi-speaking part of India settled (ARGH, the word ruled gets my goat!) by Welshmen, or what?
Boy, if there is so direct a connection, I'd suspect that it went the other way around.
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old hand
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It is so strange that when one thinks of or reads something, the chances that the same topic will pop up again somewhere soon are so high. Just yesterday, I was watching, on BBC world, a news report of welsh boys being taught to play rugby. For some reason, I listened closely to the words of the boy who was being interviewed. I did not think at the time the accent was like mine, but today, on reading Sparteye's post, I think maybe that was what held my attention. (It could not have been the rugby for which i have no special interest.)
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Carpal Tunnel
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Speaking of Welsh and Indian. Can anyone help me with a more or less simple guide to pronouncing Indian names?
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Pooh-Bah
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Just use the Welsh pronunciation, Faldo. Never fails, boyo. How many Indian villages have Jones the Baker or Jones the Taxi?
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Somehow I don't think they have a Ll in Hindi.
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>Somehow I don't think they have a Ll in Hindi.
Pishtosh - I'll take the Welsh "Ll" over Hindi's flapped aspirated retroflex consonants any day.
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Llovely to see you bach, max :)
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Hi Faldage, I did a search in google and look what i came up with:
<url>http://www.route79.com/journal/archives/000084.html</url>
Now, if only there were people named Aloo Gobi.
I could help you, if you have specific Indian names in mind.
>Somehow I don't think they have a Ll in Hindi.
I do not know how the Welsh Ll is pronounced, but we have different L sounds in different Indian languages; only one L sound Hindi, though.
>How many Indian villages have Jones the Baker or Jones the Taxi?
:) Hi, Capf.
>shtosh - I'll take the Welsh "Ll" over Hindi's flapped aspirated retroflex consonants any day.
Hi, Mr. Traitor Max.
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(Thankyou for your help over at the grammar post, TEd)
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>Mr. Traitor Max Nothing personal, Avy. It's just that Sri Rama will marry Ravana before my poor tongue gets the hang of these 3: http://snipurl.com/dkqr-mq42
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Thanks Avy.
We do have some names in particular but we're in a situation where they're going to be coming at us faster and faster. Two that I can think of right off hand are Vishruth (who I spoke to on the phone just yesterday so I know how it's pronounced) and Verma. Another question, if an Indian man refers to himself as, say, Vishruth, do I call him Vishruth or is there some honorific that I would use when talking to him? In Japanese, for example, I would call myself Faldage but others would call me Faldage-san. I would never refer to myself as Faldage-san, however.
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> I would never refer to myself as Faldage-san Glad to hear it, we'd think you were clean round the bend. http://www.deosan.co.nz/
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we'd think you were clean round the bend. We don't?
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Ahem!
I might be around the bend but I don't think I'm clean.
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Vishruth: "V" as in Victory; "Vish" as in "Fish", "Ruth" as in the name, only the vowel sound is not long - the vowel sound in "ruth" would be similar to the vowel sound in "put".
Verma: This is a common North Indian Surname. "V" as in Victory. "erm" as in the "orm" of worm - except you HAVE to roll your R when you pronounce "erm". The final "a" as in "far". The name would sound like "Vurrmaa"
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Regarding the honorific: Yes, Indians do have an honorific, but it is almost never used when the language of conversation is English. In the Indian corporate circles (where the language of communication is largely Indian English), the mode of address is Mr. Faldage's Surname or if on a first name basis, Faldage. If you refer to the man as Vishruth-ji, while speaking English, it would sound affected and odd. On the other hand, if you are speaking in Hindi and you refer to him as Vishruth, it would sound rude. Then you would use Vishruth-ji (for a more or less equal status) or Vishruth-saab (if the man worthy of more respect than "ji" offers). "Saab" is the short form of Saheb or Sahib.
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So, Faldage Saab, I do not mind being your consultant, and helping you with Indian names and customs, as and when you need it - except my services would, of course, come with a price: help with English grammar as and when I need it? :). It is very "win-win" offer.
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If you do want to use "ji", you can attach it to either the surname or the first name as per the formality of the relationship. Firstnameji is slightly less formal than Surnameji.
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The use of "ji", being Hindi, is more prevalent in North India. India is so large and diverse that if you miss out, it does not matter, because what is custom in one part of the country might not be a custom in the other part.
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I hope this helps.
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Thank you, Avy. One question about Vishruth, however. I spoke to him on the phone after posing the question here and the 'th' didn't sound like the 'th' in Ruth, the English name, just like a plain 't'. My understanding is that, except in the strings 'ch' and 'sh', the 'h' indicates aspiration.
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There are four t's in Hindi and other Devanagri languages.
1. T- as in tea (tip of the tongue to back of the teeth. This is the plain English "T" as in "team".)
2. Th - The same as above, pronounced with an explosion - produced with the tip of the tongue to the teeth ridge but letting out a lot of trapped air - I cannot think of an English analogy for this sound. Just pronounce "tea" letting out all your anger on the T sound. Yes, I know - I didn't get the phonetics prize.
3. Th - place mid tongue to the back of the teeth. I cannot think of an analogy for this, but it is the th in think but without an aspirative/explosive sound.
4. Th - place mid tongue on the teeth ridge and produce an explosive sound: as in "Think" or "thought".
The "h" does indicate aspiration but not excluisively. In in Devanagri there are diferent kinds of aspiration, depending upon which part of the tongue you place on which part of the palate. In Indian names, "th" is used for all, but the first T sound. Also "t" is not used exclusively for the 1st category. For rxample in the name "Vasant" the "t" is of the third category.
In Vishruth, the "Th" sound is of the third category (so maybe the Ruth analogy was wrong. Sorry, I am finding out that I am not too good at this.)
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I searched for aspiration+phonetics and came across this site: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/a/as/aspiration_(phonetics).htm
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Sorry, I am finding out that I am not too good at this.
Sometimes, the hardest language to explain is one's own.
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No call to be sorry. It happens to all of us sooner or later.
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"phrrrp": "p" "r" "h" as in the English "Phrrrp" pronounced with the tongue stuck right out.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Is that the same as "Phthrrrrrrrrrrrrp!" where the tongue flaps at the end - known as a raspberry?
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I spell it "Pthththppppp!" Does that make it an aspberry?
(OK, I can already see where this one is going....)
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where this one is goingYep. It's cross-threading to beery/beary in Q&A 
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