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True, colons are used for lists. However, they have other functions and, of those, a most important one: to draw attention to a point being made.

In the sentence we're been examining, the colon isolates the specific point of reference, draws our attention to information the reader can focus on. A dash, instead, would indicate that a clause is about to trot down that final lane. But there's no clause that follows that dash in what Milo suggested. I'll continue to happily disagree with the proposed dash for this particular sentence.

Edit: Here's a url for a good overview of colon use:

http://www.mccc.edu/students/tutoring/colon.html


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Is a list with nothing on it still a list?

No, it's listless.




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I wonder why anyone who is not a "prescriptivist" would want to consult a "prescriptivist" on the use of commas?

It was an experiment. I wanted to see how many prescriptivists there were onboard, and how many conflictging rules they could enumerate. You've sussed me out. Dang!



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Dear jheem,

I enjoyed your response above, and it answered one of my points of curiosity about the thread. However, your test has holes in it, if I may boldly observe upon it in a friendly way.

Here are my observations:

1. When a thread starter invites a restricted group of people to reply, it is guaranteed that people outside that closed set will reply, most often first. Start a thread with: "European speakers of English, explain the phrase that follows." Guaranteed the first four or so posters wouldn't have ever laid a foot on the continent. [Yes, I exaggerate, but that is a deeply ingrained trait that cannot be erased...uh, deleted.]

2. To be aware of punctuation rules (and the distortion, misinterpretation, and varied application of them as in style manuals for corporations) does not automatically make one a prescriptivist.

3. Even the most enthusiastic of punctuation rule observers could have the soul of a descriptivist with flint sharp barb ready to cast at the first person who tries to tie up the language, gag it, and keep it from moving out of capitivity.

Hey! Where did you get that sentence, by the way? It's a sentence without much attitude, although I suppose you could read a little humor in the hardcover vanity press phrase and reference to Ithaca.


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Milum, I think I understand what WW is going for. I found this explanation for the dash in a punctuation guide.

Dash (--)


Use a dash to indicate an abrupt break in thought.
Example: The truth is--and you probably know it--we can't do without you.


Use a dash to mean namely, in other words, or that is before an explanation.
Example: It was a close call--if he had been in a worse mood, I don't think I'd still be her


So the name of the book is not really an explanation so the dash doesn't apply.

Well now, see, I love learning something new everyday.


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jheem Offline OP
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Here are my observations

WW, yeah, it was a flawed experiment, like many. I seriously was curious how many different opinions I'd get. And, was happy with those tendered. I feel that there's a little bit of prescriptivist in all of us: you, me, and others. Likewise there's a touch of the descriptivist in most of us, too.

Where did you get that sentence, by the way?

I wrote it the other day in a blog entry. I added the first comma and corrected the misspelled Ithaca at the time of starting the thread. The book is a rather fun rant by an old-fashioned (i.e., per-Chomskyan) linguist about the foolishness of prescriptivism in general. I'd already read it in its second and non-vanity-press-published edition, and had obtained this first edition to see how much—if anything—had been changed.

I was mainly interested in the commas delimiting the Jr. in Professor Hall's name, but the colon/em dash controversy started up and I've had fun looking through various normative books in my library as a result.

Thanks, everybody.



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A) The only failed experiment is one we don't learn anything from

and

2) As Dub Dub' pointed out, there's a difference between prescriptivism and style manuals.


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Reverting to an earlier twist of the thread:
No one talks about big old ladies or minor motion pictures.


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Is Linguistica the publisher? If so, I think you need a comma after Lingistica: Linguistica, Ithaca, NY. I'm pretty sure that's MLA and APA format. I'll check the MLA manual tomorrow at school. I absolutely detest doing bibliographies, footnotes, and all that's related to proper reference style. It takes all the joy out of research, though I understand the purpose of continuity. I know of a writer-professor who was kicked out of a prestigious university for failing to correctly cite a source. Well, he didn't give any credit at all. It wasn't over a comma or anything like that!


#134413 10/25/04 12:30 AM
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I think it fair to describe "Bugsy Malone" (1976) as a minor motion picture because all of the gangsters and gun molls hit men and barkeeps are played by children.



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