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> very slow versions of a Staleone movie-
I almost choked on my coffee. This CERTAINLY fits my conception of a Stallone movie!!!
TEd
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Funny, I always thought Greek plays were wordy events. Stallone economises on scriptwriters by not having any dialogue. You are obviously referring to the violence ...
CK (paid-up member of the eternal Greek chorus)
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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>It's generally considered pretentious and rude to interlard your conversation with French words or your writing with Latin quotations. I think it's equally pretentious and rude ("I'm smarter than you; I've travelled more") to use foreign names instead of English names when speaking English.
Perhaps it is just the people you hang around with. In Montréal, Québec, it is quite common to intersperse French words into the conversation as both English and French are official languages and both are commonly used. As such I do take exception at your saying it is pretentious and rude.
Also, you should note that board is dedicated to words. It is not called “ An English Word A Day.” You will find loads of Latin, Italian, English, French, Hindi, and every other imaginable language being bandied about. What makes this board great is the mix of people from all over the globe. If you find it rude, you will be insulted no end by the people here. I like everybody here and I enjoy them adding a bit of themselves into the posts. I have NOT found anyone pretentious OR rude and I find it very insulting that you would say such a thing!
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In response to bel's comments -
I think that to be on this board and enjoy it, you have to have the mental capability to embrace the differences which both separate and join us. Some will have travelled a good deal and others won't have had that opportunity. But every one of us travels in our minds, I believe. Even if we disagree about the meaning and value of the destination sometimes.
However, bel, I do believe that NicholasW was talking in generalities rather than accusing us of arrogance.
I hope!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Apologies to belMarduk for the unintentional offence.
Of course in Quebec or any bilingual area both languages will be used. But that is exceptional as far as most English-speakers go. And of course a board dedicated to language is also an exception, where it is understood the others are likely to have a wide knowledge of language.
But for most English speakers, use of any foreign language is excluding. Most of them don't have the education that bilinguality affords, and no longer get the classical education that allows them to pick up Latin tags. I stick by my contention that, in most contexts, significant use of any foreign language is not at all the done thing. (Of course I, skilled in language, find this frustrating, not being able to use my knowledge.)
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significant use of any foreign language is not at all the done thing
NickW, I'm not sure you and Bel are as far apart as you (plural!) think you are. I think 'significant use of a foreign language' is reasonably far removed from pronouncing the capital city of a country as its inhabitants pronounce it. I also find it hard to classify French as a foreign language in Quebec. (Sorry, Bel, I am still too lazy to find the accents and spell Montreal / Quebec correctly, although I would pronounce them the French way...)
There are people who only know the 'English' pronunciation and spelling. There are others who only know the 'native'. And there's a whole chunk of us in the middle who know both and (I'd like to think!) use whichever people will understand.
By the bye, we English speakers can't even agree on how to pronounce or spell our own language. It's hardly surprising we have variations with foreign place names. We're not even that good with 'English' place names, which gives rise to a whole new quiz...
All you non-Brits out there, how many of you can give the correct pronunciation of Hawick? Appletreewick?
Non-Americans (these should be easier, due to a bias in my knowledge!), how about Des Moines? Poughkeepsie? Piscataway?
Non-Australians, Taree? Goulburn?
(As an aside for Antipodeans, I've heard people ask the way to 'Bondy Beach'. Obviously where Alan hangs out now he's been let out...)
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I should say I am great stickler for accuracy in names. We should always use the correct names of places: Mumbai not *Bombay, Co^te d'Ivoire not *Ivory Coast, Solomon Islands nor *the Solomon Islands, and so on.
In the case where there exists a distinct English name, that is the correct name when speaking English, e.g. Geneva, which is not the French or Italian or German name. (Hmm... what is the Italian? Ginevra? Or am I mixed up?) There's a correct name for it in French when speaking in French, ditto in German. Each of the national names is a long-standing and authentic word in the respective language. No one is a "corruption" of any other, or a "bad" or "ignorant" or "sloppy" form.
This is not a plea for "traditional" names. Names can be changed. Co^te d'Ivoire used to be Elfenbeinku"ste, Ivory Coast, Costa de Marfil etc. in various languages, then they changed the name in English from Ivory Coast to Co^te d'Ivoire, in Spanish from Costa de Marfil to Co^te d'Ivoire, and so on. (They were sick of not knowing where to sit at international conferences.)
The English name of Mumbai used to be Bombay, but now it's changed. Bombay is now as much an anachronism as Batavia.
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The English name of Mumbai used to be Bombay, but now it's changed. Bombay is now as much an anachronism as Batavia.The entire issue of the name "Bombay" versus "Mumbai" is not even close to as cut and dried as you might imagine. For some of my take on this, check http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=6845&page=10&view=collapsed&sb=5&vc=1#Post6845. The question to ask is this: in today's cosmopolitan world where people are not necessarily any longer known by their locality (I have moved city two or three times in my life), who actually 'owns' the name of a place? [mild rant] The Brits are the major visitors to Ibiza and provide the lifeblood (monetarily) of the community. Are they arrogant, or just doing the right thing, when they pronounce the name Eye-beetha? I grew up in Bombay and lived there for 22 years. Why does a fascistic, non-secular, right wing political organisation (the Shiv Sena, for those not familiar with Bombay politics) have the right to tell me that the name I use for 'my' city is wrong? Whose city is it anyway? Nowhere in India except in Bombay was the name 'Mumbai' common. So do the rest of the Indians (a mere 985,000,000 of them) have no say in the name of their richest and most populous city? For what it's worth, my parents still live in Bombay and I know that less than half the population wanted the name changed - it was pushed through by the Shiv Sena on the back of their having a minority government, and thugs who threw stones at establishments that didn't change their shop signs and headed paper. I admit that there is apparently an 'arrogance' implicit in the fact that we say Florence instead of Firenze or Venice instead of Venezia, but this is not always avoidable. CapK, I think, below spoke of the fact that our names will rarely fit Japanese pronunciation conventions - since they tend not to have compound consonants. It would surely be an act of supreme arrogance on our part to presume to tell the Japanese to change their language to accomodate our names. Are we really, in the name of political correctness, expected to say Frawns, or La Frawns or La Frawnsay (apologies for inadequate orthography) for France? Names are conventional, IMO. When a convention has been established it is counter-productive to attempt to overthrow it - if the intention is clear, let it stay. We show sensitivity these days towards the names of places that are new to us, or have been recently created. I am not sure there is a good reason to backtrack through the English language, 'correcting' the spelling and pronunciation of long-standing English conventions. [/mild rant] cheer the sunshine warrior
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We show sensitivity these days towards the names of places that are new to us, or have been recently created. I am not sure there is a good reason to backtrack through the English language, 'correcting' the spelling and pronunciation of long-standing English conventions.
In 'sensitivity' to you, sweet shanks, I am refraining from using that 4-letter word that starts with A. Instead:
applause, applause! This is exactly the way I feel about
the Methodists going back through so many long-ago
written hymns and replacing 'man' or 'men' with 'people', or some such. It offends my sensibilities.
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The Brits are the major visitors to Ibiza and provide the lifeblood (monetarily) of the community. Are they arrogant, or just doing the right thing, when they pronounce the name Eye-beetha?
Ignorant, in this case. Ibiza has no distinct English name so it should be [i"vi:T@] (i.e. ee-VEE-tha), the closest English sounds to the Spanish. (Actually it shouldn't, it should be Eivissa, the Catalan name, the official name in Spain.)
I grew up in Bombay and lived there for 22 years. Why does a fascistic, non-secular, right wing political organisation (the Shiv Sena, for those not familiar with Bombay politics) have the right to tell me that the name I use for 'my' city is wrong? Whose city is it anyway? Nowhere in India except in Bombay was the name 'Mumbai' common. So do the rest of the Indians (a mere 985,000,000 of them) have no say in the name of their richest and most populous city?
Good point, in this case, though I'll continue to use Shiv Sena's imposition. I also say and use Myanmar, which is the de facto official name, but understand how controversial it is. When Aung San Suu Kyi takes over she can change it back to Burma if she likes and I'll then say that again.
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