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#113578 - 10/18/03 09:35 AM Re: Music appreciation from speech
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
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Registered: 06/24/02
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thrown away before what?

formerly known as etaoin...

#113579 - 10/18/03 12:36 PM Re: Music appreciation from speech
Wordwind Offline
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In reply to:

Mm--so, maybe we're pre-disposed for music?

Yes, Jackie. The rhythm of the heart naturally matches a multitude of nursery rhyme rhythms, such as in "Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of wa...ter." Nine months is a long time for the developing human mind to have nestled against that repeating rhythm at various tempos. The creators of nursery rhymes either consciously or unconsciously matched word rhythms to that curiously short-long repetitive rhythm of the heart as Connie has pointed out above.

It would be very interesting to note any changes in in utero behavior when the mother's heartbeat becomes faster, whether she is watching a thriller, for instance, or perhaps is involved in some physical activity in which her heartbeat (at the same rhythm) increases in speed. Such studies have probably already occurred.

I listened to an interview of a mother of either quintuplets or sextuplets say that those babies in utero had become noticeably more active during the periods of time in which she herself had had meals. Interesting. Very, in fact.

Wouldn't it be interesting to know whether fetuses became more focused and even excited when the mother's heartbeat noticeably increased?

#113580 - 10/18/03 07:34 PM nothing is ever as simple as it looks
wofahulicodoc Offline
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(or, beware the obvious explanation, especially when it's what we would like to be the case)

Why, for example, couldn't it be that whatever caused mother's heart to go faster - adrenalin, say - also crossed into the baby's circulation and made the baby's heart rate increase too, or activity level, or whatever?

#113581 - 10/19/03 12:56 PM Re: nothing is ever as simple as it looks
Wordwind Offline
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Yes, the shared chemistry makes sense--and I suppose it would be impossible to know whether it could be a combination of the two: shared chemistry plus the human consciousness picking up on some level the awareness that the environment had changed, thereby causing some kind of fetal excitement. Oh, well. It's interesting to consider...

#113582 - 10/19/03 03:46 PM Re: Music appreciation from speech
moss Offline

Registered: 10/18/01
Posts: 104
postdict would be a better choice of words than predict

Agree "predict" is inadequate but "postdict" assumes that one followed the other which may or not be the case, as you have said yourself.

Perhaps "prefigure" comes closer to it, as defined thus:

"To suggest, indicate, or represent by an antecedent form or model; presage or foreshadow: The paintings of Paul CÚzanne prefigured the rise of cubism in the early 20th century."

It could also be said that Cezanne's work represented an early expression of what was later to be known as cubism.

#113583 - 10/19/03 04:23 PM Re: warning-grandmother's tale included!
maahey Offline

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 555
WW, both fetal memory and fetal hearing and responses have been studied. The latter especially has been rather well documented. And yes, a baby does respond to similar speech/ speech prosody patterns (songs/rhymes/lullabies/stories)that the mother has familiarised it with when it was in the prenatal period.

Reminds me of an Indian mythological tale that I read years ago, from the Mahabharata or the Panchatantra. (The former is one of the great INdian epics, the latter is from around the same period, but is a collection of stories usually with a moral ending, and contributed many tales to the Arabian nights). It is the story of Ashtavakra. His father was the greatest Vedic scholar of the time. When pregnant with him, his mother, desirous that the as yet unborn child should be exposed to the great Vedas as much as he could, decided to spend more time everyday, in the room where the Vedas were recited . The child started learning at a rapid rate. One day, a group of scholars arrived at Ashtavakra's home to clarify some doubts that they had with the Rig Veda. In the midst of their scholarly debate, the child (foetus actually) interrupted the father and corrected his take on the very point. (Ok! It is a myth!..but a telling one)So great had his learning in the womb been that he had picked up nuances that had skipped the father's knowledge even. The father was humiliated and enraged and his ego was bruised enough for him to curse his son that he would be born deformed in eight places in his body(Ashta-eight; vakra-crooked). Poor Ashtavakra. He had not as yet learnt to not speak out of turn! The father repented immedaitely, but a curse is a curse and it cannot be withdrawn. He therefore added a rider saying that the day Ashtavakra would defeat a gathering of the greatest scholars of the land in Vedic debate, in the King's Court, his bodily deformities would be cured. Which Ashtavakra did at the age of eight(?) and was cured and all was well that ended well......
Point of the story, you ask?........Learning in the womb and do not speak out of turn especially in the midst of elders

In India, all pregnant women are mandated almost to experience good emotions, culture, music, diet, intellectually stimulating exercises and every effort is made to keep them in cheer and happiness, so that the baby is born in a state of good mental and physical health. To this end, there are special functions for almost every one of the nine months and each one is celebrated with much pomp and gaiety especially the one in the eighth month, the bangle festival (my translation). Everyone invited gives the mother-to-be a set of new bangles and gifts and individual wishes welcoming the baby are whispered into the mother's ear.
Have I been on a roll or what......????

#113584 - 10/19/03 05:47 PM Re: Music appreciation from speech
musick Offline
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The chromatic scale is not the one we ordinarily use in tonal music compositions. (emphasis added)

What you talkin' bout, Willis? I won't even get into the "we ordinarily" part... sheeesh...


"dissonant music"
or who come from a culture with a different musical scale. Or am I talking about the same thing?

It seems to be easy to equate <tonal> with <consonance> when one has been listening to the same tones all ones life... so, Zed, you may be talking about the same thing...

#113585 - 10/19/03 09:14 PM Re: Music appreciation from speech
Jackie Offline

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The creators of nursery rhymes either consciously or unconsciously matched word rhythms to that curiously short-long repetitive rhythm of the heart Whoa--you're right! I never thought of that before--thanks!

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