|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
Hi everybody,
I need to find a couple of on-line dictionaries that will give me the pronunciation of the letter H. Big argument going on here with some saying your pronounce the H (Haitch) and others saying you don't (aitch).
I'm thinking there might be a difference between North Amercian pronunciation and British pronunciation.
I'd really appreciate your help. I admit to being quite bad at finding stuff on the net.
I know we've discussed this here before but dang if I could find it. I did the search button thing and came up empty.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Far as I know, ain' no USns pronounce it haitch. Some of us think haitch is British and some think it's only the Cockneys who pronounce it like that. Probably it's something in between, them UKns having so many dialects and all.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
While we're discussing 'aitch,' may I add this question:
Long time ago, we in the States would write "an historical." But I think 'an historical' sounds quite affected to my contemporary ear. Isn't it quite proper these days in the States to write 'a historical event'?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
bel, onelook.com is a whole bunch of dictionaries in a single web site. It has NO listings for aspirated haitch and 13 for aitch. Take a look! http://onelook.com/?w=aitch&ls=a
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
WW,
Well, we aspirate the H in 'historical' so the article should be a. But still I say 'an historical,' even if I don't write it. Go figger. :)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
There used to be a rule that a word starting with an aspirated H would take "a" if its first syllable was stressed and "an" if it wasn't. Although you will still find some who follow this rule, it has pretty much gone by the boards.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475
addict
|
addict
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
I'm with Whitman on the pronunciation front, but I don't think there is a 'right' way to pronounce anything, just your own accent or dialect norm . [rant] apart from herb you crazy h-dropping loonies [/rant]
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
So does nobody pronounce it out like in Hat, Hampton, Hog when you say your A,B,Cs? (Ay Bee Cee Dee Eee Eff Gee Haitch...) ?? Do you all say at, ampton and og ?
P.S. I'm with you on the Herb thing Dody. That new cuisine "erb" grates on me. I know they're going for the French sound (the H is always silent in French) - but to me Erb is the sound you make when you're trying to stifle a burp while in front of company and the next words outta your mouth should be "excuse me."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
*Ahem*
Herb is a guy, an I ain' eating him, not in my scrambled eggs nor nowhere else, neither.
The military "phonetic" alphabet word for H is Hotel. An we pronounces the Haitch in thatn.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Ah, thanks, Faldage. It's the second syllable stress part of the rule I'd never heard.
But good to know it's gone by the boards, as you write, because I think 'an historical' sounds prissy and affected. I would put the phrase in the mouth of a prissy, pretentious prescriptivist.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475
addict
|
addict
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
oh, cheers ww, or maybe just someone from a different part of the world where it is the common usage
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
a different part of the world where it is the common usage
Erb! Erb! Erb! Go to the garden and pick some erbs. We need fresh erbs for the omelettes.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Erb! Erb! Erb!Tums or Rolaids, my poor man.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475
addict
|
addict
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
a different part of the world where it is the common usage
Erb! Erb! Erb! Go to the garden and pick some erbs. We need fresh erbs for the omelettes.gah, you got me bang to rights -- queen dody of double standard
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Don't worry, Queen Dody of Carthage, could be worse ~ ifn we were hypercorrecting Cockneys as mentioned by our NPIC, it coulda been "erbs fer our homelettes"
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 171
member
|
member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 171 |
"I think 'an historical' sounds prissy and affected. I would put the phrase in the mouth of a prissy, pretentious prescriptivist." I refuse to take umbrage at this statement, having matured a few decades since I titled my senior thesis, "An Historical Review of the Theories of Phototropism." Sounded good at the time (1960) and flew through the reviewers at the University of California with no requests for revision. Of course, the reviewers were all of a scientific bent and easily intimidated by what they might have suspected was an arcane rule of grammar and spelling.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
>herb stuff<
Yet, most folks are prone to putting the "h" back for herbal. Especially when they say the name of that shampoo [non-commercial, for linguistic purposes only], Herbal Essence.
I say "medicinal 'erbs", "'erb garden," or "you got any 'erb?" But I *usually say herbal, unless I get a second to think about it first, which is rarely.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
me: But still I say 'an historical,' even if I don't write it. WW: I think 'an historical' sounds prissy and affected. I would put the phrase in the mouth of a prissy, pretentious prescriptivist. ... which you know me to be, doncha, WW? (nice alliteration, notwithstanding) you'll get yours next time I see you, young lady....
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
I was just wondering (crossthreading to subtervising's affects on language), didn't all those Herbal Essence shampoo commercials (starting in the 70's) put the "H" back in herbal? Didn't the voice-over announcer always pronounce the "h"? Madison Avenue strikes again!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
'Sbeen a while since I've heard me a commercial, but I shore don' remember no H in erbal essence.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 87
journeyman
|
journeyman
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 87 |
I'm with Faldage on this one, I don't remember a "Haitch" Herbal Essence, just "'erbal Essence". Which is how I'd say it myownself.
What sane person could live in this world and not be crazy? -Ursula K. Le Guin, author (1929- )
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508
addict
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508 |
Offhand can't recall how it's pronounced in the commercials. But if you *do pronounce the aitch, you lose the alliterative appeal of erbal essence. (Off to click my way to a shampoo commercial )
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
We have ads for "Herbal Essence" here, and in these, the "H" is very definitely audible.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
We have ads for "Herbal Essence" here, and in these, the "H" is very definitely audible.Thank you, Max.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
the "H" is very definitely audible
And how about the R?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
The H is also audible in our Herbal Essence commercials (well, as far as being audible above a woman having an orgasm in the backgroud can be)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
Um, was I right in assuming that Herbal Essence is advertised everywhere by showing a woman washing her hair and making loud orgasm-induced moans (because she is evidently so pleased with the richness of it all) and yelling "yes, yes, yes."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
The ads here are as you describe them, BelM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
> Far as I know, ain' no USns pronounce it haitch. Some of us think haitch is British and some think it's only the Cockneys who pronounce it like that. Probably it's something in between, them UKns having so many dialects and all.
For some reason the laptop that I have been using recently won't let me post, something to do with cookies, I expect but it won't give me permission to change it.
Anyway wot Faldage says seems about right.
Where I come from in the North West of England it changed within a few miles. I remember those of us at school, in hysterics, in the way that only schoolgirls can, at a friend from probably a mile or two away from me who insisted on adding a "huh" to the "aitch" in the letter "h". I guess about 70% of us in the school wouldn't and around 30% of us would, so it is pretty regional and local within regions. It's a dialect thing.
On the subject of "H"erbal Essence - definitley with a "huh" for me. I can't remember the tv ad, liked the bottle design though. It's a shame it is such lousy shampoo, more like essence of whatever was in the chemical lab that day, makes my hair go limp and frizzy - no erotic moans from me.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
Small mercies ...
Anyway, IMHO the "h" usually only goes silent when it is to be preceded by the indefinite article, when the article becomes "an".
Therefore, "the hotels", but "an hotel".
FWIW.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
"an hotel".
Wellyeahbut® I say "a hotel."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261 |
>an hotel But it's hotel, not notel.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261 |
Unlike adder, which, in the old English was apparently s'posed to be naddre - thus an adder.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636 |
Ah, but if it were notel, it would be motel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
Wellyeahbut® I say "a hotel."
You're forgiven, Betsy. You're on the wrong side of the pond ...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
I would say 'a hotel' as well. 'An hotel' sounds very pretentious.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
And how about the R?The RRRRRRRRRRR????? ARRRRRRRR, Matey!! just so youse not feelin' ignored, Faldo, ol' buddy!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
Waddya mean ignored? I answered him immediately.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>"an hotel". Wellyeahbut® I say "a hotel."
But would you say an herb?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636 |
But would you say an herb?Yup.
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,374
Members9,182
|
Most Online3,341 Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
0 members (),
198
guests, and
1
robot. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|