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Fallible Fiend, in another thread, posted that he is an advocate for the rehabilitation of honest ignorance. This made me laugh out loud! I can picture it now: protestors carrying signs and marching around government buildings--oh wait, that wouldn't be necessary, would it?
But, ff, I'll join your party; it's an interesting concept, worth further discussion, I think. For the record, I started a new thread so as not to throw the other one off-topic.
It can be hard, though, to reveal one's ignorance. Every once in a while, a memory cell glimmers through the fog in my brain, and thank heavens it did, this time. I did a Search, and realized I had just come within a blink of posting an exact duplication of something I put just a few months ago! And no, I'm not telling what--publicizing ignorance plus stupidity is more than I can handle!
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Joined: Feb 2003
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old hand
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old hand
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I have a saying:
Ignorance is fixable; stupidity ain't.
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Carpal Tunnel
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We're all ignorant about something. It's a value judgement as to whether a given instance of ignorance needs fixing.
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veteran
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I'm not sure when I first got the notion, or whether it occurred to me as an epiphany; or the conclusion of some protracted, introspective analysis; or whether I simply osmoted it from some more venerable and solicitous source, like a philosophy book or a bathroom stall. But I've stewed about this intermittently for a very, very long time. Still, I'll wait to see if there's any interest in the subject before attempting to expand.
k
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see if there's any interest in the subject
Fix our ignorance
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Carpal Tunnel
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I value Faldage's judgement.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Is this that "Ignornance is Bliss" special interest group stirring up trouble again? Sheesh! 
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Not about educating anyone. It's more about expressing a pov. Besides, if I'm correct that education is what one does for one's self and schooling is what gets done to one, then "educating someone else" is maybe as fruitful as squaring circles.
The first of my prefatory remarks.
1. I recall in HS and even in college, people gloating over their perception of certain people's naivete - especially regarding sex, but also things like smoking, drugs, cursing, and so on. It's a mind-boggling thought, really, which we accept without comment that there are people - a great many people - who believe that their vast sexual experience gives them some special insight, if not into the inner workings of the cosmos, at least into the big wide world of "what adulthood means." The prevalence of this view was merely curious to me in HS, but absolutely shocking as I entered college and then sojourned, and finally left - with very little deviation from the norm till near the end. The shocking part is that there are still people well into their twenties who consider experience equal to knowledge or understanding.
2. A related idea is this silly notion that "with age comes wisdom." I've known some older people I thought were pretty wise. These were people I think were already pretty smart in their younger years. But I gotta say, that there are people who were really stupid in their youths who are even more stupid in their adulthood. It's a hopeful idea, but just silly.
3. I noticed in many cases in myriad discussions and arguments the claim made by one party that the other party exhibited "pure ignorance." In the majority of those cases I felt that the claimant had misdiagnosed the problem. In some cases, the problem really was ignorance, but in most, it seemed, the other party wasn't so much ignorant as willfully ignorant, perhaps even malicious (or so it seemed to me). In some cases, the object of rebuke did not appear to be particularly ignorant to me. People who use this sort of language to identify and dismiss the positions of their antagonists are also likely to mention how their mission is "merely to educate" them. Again, though, I assess that this is almost always a mischaracterization of their actions - which so far as I can tell is to humiliate the other person or "score points" as Pfranz and Vanguard have put it. A common assertion is that the ignorant person is "pathetic" and that the educator "feels sorry for them."
So far I'm speaking in general terms here. Sure these are things I've witnessed, but I have to think they are not uncommon observations.
4a. I notice also that some people approach a conversation the way evangelists approach my front door. In my view - and I think in most people's intuitive view - a conversation involves the exchange of ideas. But some people consider that the purpose of any conversation is to convince the listener that they're right. Of course I'm not suggesting - even remotely - that people should never disagree or that there is no room for debate or argument in conversation. Many of my most memorable conversations are of having been bested by a particularly knowledgeable over a casual coffee or a bloody game of chess. But an argument - a real argument is *STILL* an exchange of ideas. "Well, that's very interesting, but did you consider this." "...uh, well, no I wasn't even aware of that." But some faux conversationalists, exactly like that door-to-door religion salesman, don't give a rat's ass what their listener is saying or what the listener feels or, in fact, anything else the listener might have to offer other than complete rejection by the listener of his current view and the immediate, unwavering endorsement of the "conversationalist's" opinions. Knowing the truth - or being convinced of one's possession of The Truth - is more important than trying to discover it.
4b. In Broca's Brain, Sagan quotes Russell's Skeptical Essays (both of which books I highly recommend, btw): "William James used to preach the will to believe ... for my part I should wish to preach the will to doubt ... What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the wish to find out - which is the exact opposite." I don't know that I agree with this exactly (and, in fact, I suspect he has misinterpreted James), but I do agree with the gist of it. I think there are a great many people who are more interested in defining the truth than they are in figuring out where it is. I don't know - maybe this is a natural tendency for all of us. I haven't figured that part out yet. (BTW, i'm kinda fond of a quote by James that "A great many people think they're thinking when they're merely rearranging their prejudices." even though I think that's a pretty accurate description of my own mental activity much of the time.)
I guess I don't want to type in any more at this point without getting a bit of back and forth on it. All of this and I haven't even gotten to the gist of why I think honest ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of.
k
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Regarding a couple of Fallible's observations:
" But I gotta say, that there are people who were really stupid in their youths who are even more stupid in their adulthood."
Personal account: Grand ladies--lovely, well-groomed always, mannerly--from my childhood. I was intimidated by them--I was such a mess, particularly physically. But they were held up as some kind of ideal by family members. Came across them recently. Now they're elderly. Was terribly disappointed to hear most of their conversation centered around: hair appointments--walk-ins v. regularly scheduled ones; best lengths of hair; glasses as stylish accessories. You get the picture. They just had not grown into something wiser. Still stuck in perfected physical appearance. Not saying they haven't done a lot of good. Just saying that I was shocked that their remarkable appearance commented on so much as I was coming up as a child was still what they worked at and talked about.
"William James used to preach the will to believe ... for my part I should wish to preach the will to doubt "
Always doubt. That's how any theory or theory-breaker moves forward. But you still have to have the will to believe in your ability to doubt well. And with direction. And with creativity.
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Carpal Tunnel
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I gotta print this so I can get back to you, in about a week. this is cool stuff.
sorry, not very conversational, but some of these posts are so wonderfully long that I can't get a word in flat-ways... my brain starts to formulate a reply and boom! there's the next great thought, and my prior idea zooms away trying to make room for the next...
this could be several smaller threads, and begins to really shine light on the inadequacies of the forum format.
formerly known as etaoin...
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