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#109609 09/02/03 06:42 PM
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"But what we are now talking about is political and statistical truth." What do you mean by that?


#109610 09/02/03 06:59 PM
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Mav claimed that 25,000 people died in the UK last winter due to the extreme cold. Jackie countered that only 700 people died in the US from hypothermia each winter, and therefore, mav's stats must be in error. The problem is that mav's figures did not specify the proximate cause of death, merely that there were (approximately) 25,000 more deaths last winter than there were the winter before, a more normal winter. The assumtion is that they were due to the harshness of the winter. Jackie's figures were only from one particular cause of death, one that is predominantly occuring in winter, but not the only cause of severe winter deaths nor does hypothermia occur only in the winter. Heart attack while shoveling snow is just one example of other deaths that can be blamed on winter. If the severe winter brought with it greater amounts of snow and the number of heart attack deaths increased during the severe winter, then they too could be blamed on the severe winter.

I'll leave the subject of political truth to others more versed in the subject.


#109611 09/02/03 07:13 PM
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""mav's stats must be in error" - It's not always. When in our country was communism our statistics never say that somebady die of hot or cold.


#109612 09/02/03 10:54 PM
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Em--I apologize for my apparent "countrycentrism". It wasn't that, so much as I was assuming (nope, I never will learn) that, while numbers of deaths were unlikely to be falsified at lower than the actual number, the causes of death that England's figures must include might well have caused that total to be exaggerated--compared to our total, that is. I would be interested to compare the two countries' totals for ONE direct cause of death only, say, literally freezing to death.
Though I do agree with mav's point that, barring accident, we have no business letting anyone in either country die because it's cold.


#109613 09/02/03 11:50 PM
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The assumtion is that they were due to the harshness of the winter.

It's a clear cut assumption, and stands in direct parallel to the criticism of the French for their perceived failings in the face of the heatwave. Without LIU exhaustively, I will nevertheless bet a guinea to a groat that the French death toll in similar fashion will not reveal the exact proximate cause of death. I doubt if anyone was killed by "fried brain pan" or whatever the medics' Latin translation is - but the overall effects of the heatwave were to cause the deaths of several thousands of people who can be expected to have lived through a more typical summer. In similar fashion were felt the effects of a severe winter in the UK; and I have little doubt that the USA stats do not show the full causal picture either.

But when an elephant falls in your deckchair, it's not much good discussing from whence it was exfenestrated. ;)


#109614 09/03/03 10:38 AM
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not much good discussing from whence it was exfenestrated

If you're intersted in stopping future elephants from landing in your deck chair, it's *very important to discuss from whence it was exfenestrated[sic]. While comparing deaths in a normal winter with deaths in a severe winter is a good way to get a first order estimate of the deaths caused by "the winter," it can be inaccurate if there was, e.g., a big flu epidemic that would have happened regardless of the severity of the winter. Possibly more people would have died from the flu epidemic in a severe winter, but perhaps many who died would not have if they had been house-bound by the severity of the weather during the epidemic.


#109615 09/03/03 12:22 PM
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Two oxymorons in one phrase. On yer, girl!

Thank you. One does one's best.


#109616 09/03/03 01:00 PM
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exfenestrated?

I always thought de, as in defenestrated was the correct prefix to use.

Death resulted from the unfortunate circumstances of sitting under the path of a defenestrating elephant.(as to whether or not the elephant survived the experience was not noted)



#109617 09/03/03 01:10 PM
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I betcha Mav was pulling our collective leg.


#109618 09/03/03 01:15 PM
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on the other hand, see adfenestration -- I wouldn't put that past him!


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