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Joined: Apr 2008
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2 |
The presence of Spanish-sourced vocabulary does not make Tagalog a creole of Spanish. If it does, then English is a Spanish creole too. Or either a French creole. I would say the simplest, and most likely, explanation is that Tagalog has a large number of Spanish loan words. I agree! I think the Spanish language crept in during the centuries of Spanish rule.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
I had not realized that a Creole was not or could not become a language with it's own grammer etc. In fact I assumed that English itself was a creole of Norman and Saxon that continued to develope. From what I had heard I thought that Tagalog had done the same thing becouse of Spanish rule.
Does Norfolk have a blend of grammatical rules or just of word origins?
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067 |
Good point. Though I would have thought early English was a creole of Norman with the pre-existing creole formed from several previous creoles going right back to the creole of Roman Latin with Celtic languages?
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
ah, a creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeooooooooooollllle
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
Neither Old English nor Middle English are creoles in the strict sense. The Britons during the Roman Empire pretty much adopted Latin as the official state language, while retaining their various Brythonic dialects for non-official matters. When the Roman legions left to protect other, more important, parts of the crumbling empire, Latin started to fade. Then the Angles, the Saxons, and the Jutes showed up. They tended to keep to their newly founded villages, shrinking from the Roman cities which they thought of as the bones of large and dangerous creatures. When the Normans invaded, Norman French became the official or court language, but it did not replace English. When English again became the official language it had changed greatly and received a huge influx of French vocabulary, but it was basically still a Germanic language. I don't doubt that there were pidgins developed where Normans met with the English to conduct some business, but there is no trace of these, and they do not seem to have turned into creoles at some point.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067 |
I suppose you're right, in the strict sense of the word, yes.
Probably the main legacy of Latin from the Roman occupation of Britain is place names (such as the capital London itself of course). There must be quite a few other words that were adopted and remained, but that does not indicate the formation of a creole, you're right. Nor did the later Roman Catholic ascendency over the indigenous Celtic church succeed in making Latin anything more than an ecclesiastical (and largely written) language.
The succeeding waves of invaders: Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Vikings, etc; had more influence on the language than the Romans since they integrated and were common people not just administrators and nobles. This was often probably only local and dialectic though. The Normans had the greatest effect, yet, as you point out, they did not succeed in changing the language of Britain into a Latin one, largely because it was a top-down innovation.
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
There have been three waves of Latin words into English: (1) Old English absorbed many ecclesiastical terms; (2) during the English Renaissance many words were borrowed from Latin; and (3) since the 19th century many terms have been coined from the ISV (International Scientific Vocabulary).
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
it was basically still a Germanic language. And yet our grammer, let alone our vocabulary, is a mish-mash of these two very different systems, isn't it.
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 390
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 390 |
it was basically still a Germanic language. And yet our grammer, let alone our vocabulary, is a mish-mash of these two very different systems, isn't it. From what I've been taught in my English classes, I don't see much non-Germanic grammar.
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Joined: Mar 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I can sure learn something every day here; thanks! The Brythonic languages (from Welsh brython, “Briton”) are or were spoken on the island of Great Britain and consist of Welsh, Cornish, and Breton. Britannica
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