#99703
03/30/2003 7:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555
addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555 |
How did the perfectly lucid and literal FULL STOP acquire PERIOD as a synonym? What kind of punctuation do languages other than English use? Any thoughts on the evolution of punctuation? Sanskrit, I know, uses diacritics and a vertical line (sometimes two) to denote the end of a sentence. Words are separated by spaces, unlike the Latin dot. Can diacritics be considered to be a form of punctuation? I frequently use commas to denote pauses in my speech, even if grammatically, there is no reason for doing so. I think, that by doing so, I am able to convey some rhythm and emphasis to the written word. Of course, in the process, I might also be causing a great deal of confusion and if that is the case, let me apologise. Any similar such punctuational idiosyncrasies? 
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#99704
03/30/2003 9:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
the perfectly lucid and literal FULL STOP acquire PERIOD as a synonym
The first use of the word period, meaning a full sentence, cited by the OED is in 1533. The first citation for the verb meaning to bring to a termination is 1595. Its use referring to the punctuation mark is dated 1609. The first citation for full stop meaning the punctuation is 1596.
So I guess y'all got plenty backup for historical precedence.
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#99705
03/30/2003 10:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
You posted as an example of sowing your sentences with commas: >I think, that by doing so, I am able to convey some rhythm and emphasis to the written word. I read the sentence aloud and found the placement of the first comma very jarring. Instead, I would both write and say: I think that, by doing so, I am able to convey some rhythm and emphasis to the written word. The use of the commas in this particular sentence is to set off a phrase that is not necessary to the basic sense of the sentence. In fact, the sentence is correct without any commas: I think that by doing so I am able to convey some rhythm and emphasis to the written word. Be wary of sewing too many commas into your sentences lest you get a reputation as a comma suturer.
TEd
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#99706
03/30/2003 10:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Be wary of sewing too many commas into your sentences lest you get a reputation as a comma suturer.*sigh* ... TEd, you're the worst. 
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#99707
03/30/2003 11:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
the worst
Not only that, but he posts what looks, on the face of it, to be a perfectly reasonable and to-the-point post and then periods it with one of his so-called puns. We are left to wonder whether he was serious or just building up to the punch line.
BTW, I found TEd's I think that, by doing so, I am able… to be more, not less jarring than maahey's I think, that by doing so, I am able…
There seem to be two major schools of thought on comma usage, the grammatical and the rhetorical. The former assigns comma location according to the sense of the sentence and the latter according to the auditory flow. Grammarians taught in the grammatical school might, for example, scoff at the phrase "my wife Margie is on holiday" wondering what of the speaker's other wives. The follower of the rhetorical school, on the other hand, would not write, "my wife, Margie, is…" since he would not pause in speech around the name Margie.
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#99708
03/31/2003 6:57 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
No, Faldo, there's a third school - mine. It's called the School of Commatorial and Ellipsisorial Overuse, Misuse and Abnormality (SCEOMA). I can only control it retrospectively. Tom Watson would conclude that it is a genetic fault and that I should be put down to save mankind from me. My wife agrees about the putting down part, but differs with Dr Watson (I presume) on the rationale.
Anybody who wants to take up the cudgels in SCEOMA's defence is welcome! You will find the cudgels at www.ohshittheresanothermisusedcomma.org.
- Pfranz
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#99709
03/31/2003 9:37 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
What is interesting to me about commas is the examination of how they've been used over time. About a year ago here on AWAD I brought up a passage from an 18th-century writing that was so well-peppered with commas that it seemed to have about as many commas as words. I think it may have been Faldage who commented it was pretty typical of the period.
I tend to teeter-totter between the grammatical and rhetorical placement of commas and really don't mind too much how people use them unless the commas (or lack of) interfere with understanding or reading. Sometimes a comma will keep you from reading two words next to each other as directly related, when, in fact, one is the end of a phrase and the other is the beginning of a new phrase. Wish I had an example ready, but I don't. I also tend to be old-fashioned about certain comma rules and I assume I'm in a minority here--specifically, I do set off nonrestrictive clauses with commas and do not do so with restrictive clauses. I'm fairly careful about the use of 'that' and 'which,' and I realize that pinpoints me as having a foot in the old school. But, hey, it gives me a sense of being living history.
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#99710
03/31/2003 9:48 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
But, hey, it gives me a sense of being living history.WW, didn't I see you in effigy at Mme Tassaud's? I'm sure I did! Here's a link to comma usage rules that even I can understand, if not necessarily subscribe to ... http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm- Pfranz, founder and sole member, SCEOMA
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#99711
03/31/2003 10:29 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
there's a third school
two major schools
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#99712
03/31/2003 3:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
...and sole member, SCEOMA
Please, allow me to differ...
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#99713
03/31/2003 4:18 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
Musick, consider yourself SEOMA Member No. 2, membership card to be presented when next we meet. It will look like a beer mug full of real ale, so you'll be sure to recognise it! Faldo, b-r-r-r-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-p!  - Pfranz
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#99714
04/02/2003 1:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
*sigh* ... TEd, you're the worst
no, Anna, TEd is not the worsted, he is just good at yarns, and pulling the wool over your eyes!
rare day indeed when i come up with a fairly good pun, intentionally!
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#99715
04/03/2003 1:15 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Please, allow me to defer...
Where I put commas depends on whether I'm writing formally or informally. If formally, they're as grammatically correct as my knowledge will allow. Informally, as now, I put them to indicate where I would pause in speaking. In "I think, that by doing so", I can hear her voice inflecting up on the word think, just like mine would.
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